How To Setup Strat Style Tremolo

Started by notnomiistakes, September 23, 2011, 03:49:59 PM

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mbenigni

#25
Quote from: paults on January 14, 2012, 10:53:53 AM
Super Vee appears to have addressed the issue of double-stop bend string detuning issues:

https://super-vee.com/whats_new.html

I finally installed mine last night.  It works great, completely transparent when you move the bar down, has no effect when you pull up, and is reasonably transparent if you're moving from a dive through a pull or vice-versa.  The only comprimise is that it feels a bit clunky when you're doing subtle stuff near the zero point, e.g. shaking chords.  You can feel the magnet finding its detent and it's a little distracting.  (I've only played the guitar unplugged since the mod, so I'm not sure how much of this will come through the amplified signal.)  I assume all the cool Steve Vai warble effects are out the window.  On the other hand, I can finally play all the Chuck Berry (and Tony Iommi!) licks I love without everything going vaguely sour.  Definitely worthwhile.

I also put their Nut Evolution stuff on last night (and even though it probably doesn't suit the material, put some under the string tree as well.)  No comment yet.  Kind of a "no news is good news" proposition.

mbenigni

#26
Regarding the OP, I showed this to a friend and he came by over the weekend asking me to set up his strat like this.  I was really surprised at how well it works out.  He started out with the typical "almost not quite decked" setup that I see on most strats out of the box, where you can get just a tiny bit of pull if you're abusing the guitar (and half of it is probably coming off the neck anyway LOL.)  So this was a HUGE improvement IMO.  He still has to get used to the new feel, but overall I think he was pleased, too.

I went on to set my guitar up the same way, but didn't feel it had enough pull range.  But I was inspired by this idea of paying attention to the intervals at full tilt, so I came up with an alternative.  The setup in the video results in the following:

1st   minor 2nd
2nd  Major 2nd
3rd   minor 3rd
4th  ~minor 3rd
5th  ~minor 3rd
6th  ~minor 3rd

...and mine is now at:

1st   Major 2nd
2nd  Minor 3rd
3rd   perfect 4th (!)
4th   ~Major 3rd
5th   ~perfect 4th
6th   ~Major 3rd

Weird how things get non-linear after the 3rd string.  Anyway the 2nd setup gives me a little more of a stunt guitar vibe, but I can't dive as far (for the metal slack string rumble thing.)  And the jury is still out as to whether I will get tuning stability on par with the more conservative setup.

It's interesting to pay attention to the way chords bend with these setups.  With the 1st setup, you can play a Major chord inversion with strings 1-3 on the same fret (e.g. E Major w/ all strings open) and then pull the bar full up for a minor chord inversion (in this case A#/Bb minor.)  My setup will jump from the same open EM to what I'd probably call a D7 in most contexts.  Mine could be used as a VI V change; his is probably a modulation to another key.  I imagine there are a whole bunch of variations depending on the initial chord fingering.  Not sure if this will prove useful, but it's really fun to think about.

Anyway, great thread; got our wheels turning.  Thanks!

P.S. Oops scratch that re: the VI V; it's also going to be a modulation, from E to E minor.

musicman65

My #2 is a stock black MiM RR Strat. It sits on stage as my "oh crap" axe in case of #1's early demise. So far, it has gotten no use.

It's time to start #2's transformation. I ordered a birdseye maple Warmoth Pro neck with Stainless Steel frets last night. I am hunting down another Super-Vee locking trem and gonna give Kinman MkIII's a shot vs the noiseless Dimarzio Area yy pups in #1.

I am also gonna give the Mag-Lok a try in place of the TremSetter. They operate on similar theories with advantages going to the Mag-Lok on being a "no load" device once the magnets are out of range with each other.

Thanks for the review. I don't do "Warble Tones" like Brad Gillis and do double-stop bends and up/down dives all the time so a zero detent device is perfect for me.

bd

notnomiistakes

mbenigni
Interesting intervals.  My friend loves his Carl Verheyen whammy set up. 

notnomiistakes

musicman65
let us know how the new guitar is with Mag-Lok

mbenigni

@musicman - This is probably not your first Warmoth neck, but just in case, be forewarned that they don't do any shaping/ polishing on their fret ends.  Great necks otherwise, but you'll want to plan on taking care of that yourself before installing (unless it's an option Warmoth offers and I just missed it.)

musicman65

mbenigni:

Thanks for the reminder! This is my second Warmoth Pro Series neck. Yep, I spent several hours deburring and polishing the fret ends last go round. They where pretty rough. The Stainless Steel frets are super hard too. The good thing is that they won't wear for many years. I am a hard picker and my nickel fretted necks show heavy fret grooving after a year or so.

bd

myksara

#32
I think it is safe to say that most strats have pathetic
Tremelo systems installed and people have to
find ways by installing the supwrvee bladerunner
, locking tuners etc...
Can we request fender n roland to install the bladerunner
as default on all new gc1, vg strats and fender strats
with a price tag above 800 dollars or so?..
Most of us would not mind paying the additional cost right?
Guitars: Ibanez Prestige S5470, Ibanez Jem 7v, Ibanez JS2410, PRS SE Custom24, Cort  Ltd G16, Ibanez RG370Ahmz,
MultiFX: Roland GR55, Zoom 1on, BOSS GT00
Loopers: Digitech trio+, Line 6 JM4
MIDI:, MAudio Axiom24 keyboard, Alesis IO Dock with iPad air 2

datsunrobbie

You can ask anything, but I think getting Roland to install Bladerunners is even less likely than them fixing the bugs reported in the VG-99. The extra cost involved is not just for the parts, but for an extra branch on the assembly line, unless they ALL came with Bladerunners. Adding at least another $100 to the selling price won't help increase sales of the Roland strats at all. I'm guessing that most of the people who buy Roland strats can either swap the bridge themselves, know somebody who can perform the swap, or are diving in blind and wouldn't know the difference.

Fortunately it is very easy to swap parts on a strat so you can put in whatever you want. While some may want a Bladerunner, others may be die-hard users of a competing bridge, and they would not want to pay the extra markup for a Bladerunner and then swap it for a Callaham/Graphtech/Babicz or whatever they prefer.

I'd love to try out a Bladerunner myself, but I've never even seen one in person. My #1 strat has Sperzel locking tuners and Graphtech string-savers installed on a stock Fender 2-point tremolo. Has anybody here swapped a Bladerunner into a similar setup?

Elantric

#34
QuoteCan we request fender n roland to install the bladerunner

Sure - but you must make this request directly to Roland  as an individual.

Re-read the banner at the top of this web site.

"User Supported"
"Community Driven"
"Volunteer Managed"

VGuitarForums has zero affiliation with Roland or Fender, and neither company has an official here who is taking notice of any discussions. Occasionally we have folks from Roland UK drop in,

but the official word from Roland Corporation is:
"We have no interest in User Forums"



QuoteI think it is safe to say that most strats have pathetic
Tremelo systems installed and people have to
find ways by installing the supwrvee bladerunner
, locking tuners etc...


Aftermarket Strat parts remains a thriving business, but realize several "stock" strats have most of the right bits right out of the box - like the Fender Jeff Beck Strat.

In the 1970's life was rather easy  - a Strat was a Strat and a Les Paul was a Les Paul. with only 10 variations of each.

Today there are hundreds of known variations, each with specific unique features, so a global statement "Most Strat's have pathetic tremolos" is incorrect.


musicman65

What you say is blasphemy! Purists would require your head on a platter for such talk!  :) :)

I spent many many years attempting to live with Leo fenders tremolo design. It is inherently flawed in numerous ways.

There are 3 methods I found that solve the two biggest issues: tuning stability and return to pitch after hard bends.

1. Floyd Rose Double Locking system: requires heavy mods, non-standard radius and lacks ease of adjustment....but is stable.

2. Fender Deluxe Locking Tremolo (Floyd Rose single locking): used with a graphite nut and locking tuners, is stable enough but not perfect. No longer available. This is replaced by Bladerunner today.

3. Super-Vee Double Locking tremolo: drop in install just like the Bladerunner, minor cavity relief may be needed, slightly stiffer due to spring blade pivot, fully adjustable saddles and intonation like a vintage unit. Works perfect in solving tuning issues but feels a little different.

The Bladerunner most likely has very minor stability issues with going slightly flat after hard bends due to nut friction but is within usable limits and still retains a more vintage approach. By all accounts, it appears to be a great solution. Being an FR guy, I don't mind double locking systems.

bd

Elantric

#36
There are known strategies to help any Strat tremolo.

Most are already documented all over the web.

Myself - I hate locking Tuning systems, prefer to use all the available strings for sonic mayhem. If we all used locking Nuts, then Jerry Donahue and Adrian Belew would not be able to play many of their signature riffs.

(No Elephant Talk for Adrian)

and Jerry Donahue (Tele Master) here:


mockchoi

Never tried a bladerunner, though I'm sure they're great.  And I do have locking tuners on my strat, though it's because I like them for changing strings.  I don't have any issues with a strat trem.

One of my favorite things to do with my strat, when people dis the trem, is to play each note of an open G-chord slowly, then a couple of octaves of a G-major scale.  Then I wail on the tremolo violently, reverse it, grab it, and and 'pull up and wiggle' on it Steve Vai style, then drop it all the way again, etc.  Then I play the G chord and G-major scale, still in tune.  It's great fun.

mbenigni

#38
The Bladerunner is great, but around the same time I bought two of them, I was also setting up strats for a friend of mine - standard vintage-style trems on mexican strats.  His tuning stability under hard playing is, if anything, better than mine - and he's using cheap stock tuning machines vs. my (decent, not great) Planet Waves locking tuners.  It's all down to the set up - spring tension, nut slot width and lubrication, string break angle over the nut, etc.  It took about 25 years for me to accept this: the old-fashioned strat trem doesn't look like there's any way it could possibly work, but it does!

(The friend in question also swears by Fender Bullets, and maybe there is something to Fender's claims about the "bullet" providing better tuning stability then a floating ball end.  Having seen what he pulls off on his strats, I'll definitely be giving them a go.)

Elantric

#39
+1 for Fender Bullets - I swear by them, and use these on all my guitars, unless there is a Bigsby, then I use Daddarios or DR Blues strings (after I dunk each ball end in Super Glue to add stability - like S.I.T. Strings do at the factory)

On my 25.5" scale length Surf Guitars with Jazzmaster tremolos, (Xavier JT-100, DiPinto Galaxie IV, Squire J. Mascis -  i use Fender 3250RH Bullets


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003B0ABGE/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Add Locking Tuners, and Graphtech TUSQ XL Nut and I'm good!
http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=5




mbenigni

Quote+1 for Fender Bullets - I swear by them

He'll be interested to hear your endorsement.  He's also a surf player:  http://www.facebook.com/NorthShoreTroubadours

He recently asked me whether I thought the Bullet thing was legit, or just a bunch of marketing pseudo-science - in other words, whether he was being rational in being loyal to the product all these years.  I've never played Bullets myself, so all I could tell him was that the reasoning (the geometry, essentially) seemed sound to me.  That, and the proof's in the pudding, so to speak - the guy is into heavy trem abuse, and he's always in tune.

I played DR Pure Blues for several years, myself, but stopped using them because they (used to) cut the 6th string a little long at the ball end, and this seemed to confuse tracking on my Parker MIDIFly's.

mbenigni

BTW - what's your take on Original Bullets vs. Super Bullets (whose picture I see you linked above)?

Elantric

#42
http://www.fender.com/news/fender-bullets-strings/

You know, when you see Fender "Bullets" and "Super Bullets" electric guitar strings there on the display rack at your local retailer, the names aren't just a gimmicky play on how fast, straight, true and deadly your playing will be when you use them. There's actually a lot of Fender innovation and history behind them.

In a nutshell, "Bullets" and "Super Bullets" strings are so named for the bullet-like terminus of their bridge ends, which differ markedly from the "ball-ends" of conventional electric guitar strings. They are designed to impart greater tuning stability and sustain through improved string-bridge contact.


Fender Bullets string ends (Fig. 1, above), and Fender ball string ends (Fig. 2, below). Note how the string wire must loop around the ball ends in Fig. 2; no such loop is necessary in the bullet-end design.


With its long history of instrumental innovation, it's no surprise that Fender eventually turned its attention to guitar string design. Specifically, Fender engineers of the early 1970s were aware that the standard ball-end string design that had prevailed until then presented very specific tuning problems, especially on tremolo-equipped guitars.

The problems lay in the design of the string themselves. On ball-end strings, the core wire of the string wraps around a separate piece, a tiny metal "ball" (more like a very short tube, really; see Fig. 2 at right). This creates a small V-shaped area of "slack" fit in the two places where the wire loops around the ball. At normal string tension, this "slack" wire loop is taut and unbent, and the ball end is prevented from completely abutting the bridge plate (or, in the case of a Stratocaster, from sitting completely snugly in the trem block channel). This fit isn't the most optimal form of contact between the end of the string and the bridge.

An effect of the ball-end design is that when bending a string, the wire in that small slack area bends slightly, allowing the ball-end to seat itself more closely against the bridge. Then, when "diving" the tremolo, tension on the bridge end of the string is briefly released, causing the slack area to attempt to spring back to its original un-bent position, only to "re-bend" when bending the string again. The problem is that when the string returns to tension, it might or might not be seated against the bridge exactly as it was before, which means there's a pretty good chance that it will be slightly out of tune. Another problem is that, on Stratocaster guitars, ball ends often get wedged in the tremolo block channels pretty tight, making them difficult to remove when changing strings.

Fender engineers sought to remedy this situation in the early 1970s by designing a new string end that optimized contact with the bridge. They did away with the ball-end design entirely; in fact, they did away with whole idea of winding the string around a separate end piece.

Their solution was to attach a tiny cylinder of solid steel plated with zinc shaped like a bullet to the end of the string in a tidy-one piece construction (see Fig. 1 at top right). There was no loop and hence no slack, and the business end of the bullet made tighter and more uniformly solid contact with the bridge. Further, the nature of the precision-machined bullet-end design meant that the string returned to the exact same position every time, greatly improving tuning stability even after heavy tremolo use.


Above, a Stratocaster tremolo block cut away in cross section shows how a bullet-end string fits more solidly and precisely in the string channel than a ball-end string, imparting advantages in both tuning stability and sustain. Below, a 1979 Fender ad for Super Bullets features jazz great Larry Carlton playing a decidedly un-Fender-like guitar.


The new string-end design was especially well suited to Stratocaster guitars because the bullet ends fit far more precisely into the tremolo block, closely fitting the circumference of the string channel, and they slipped out easily when changing strings.

Fender introduced its bullet-end electric guitar strings circa 1974 under the name "Super Bullets." They were available in pure nickel and nickel-plated steel versions for electric guitar and bronze-wound for acoustic guitars. Although Super Bullets electric strings could be used on many different guitars (Larry Carlton touted them in a 1979 Fender ad in which he was pictured playing a Gibson guitar!), they were especially popular with Stratocaster players.

Super Bullets existed largely unchanged until the early 1990s, when Fender switched from zinc-plated steel to brass for the bullet ends. Brass had the additional advantage of imparting improved sustain. By the mid-1990s, Fender was offering pure-nickel bullet-end strings dubbed "Bullets," nickel-plated steel bullet-end strings dubbed "Super Bullets, and bullet-end acoustic strings in bronze and phosphor bronze versions. Bullet-end stainless steel strings appeared in the late 1990s.


Today, Fender continues to offer its classic bullet-end electric guitar strings in the strong, slender forms of its pure-nickel 3150 Original Bullets, which are ideal for vintage-style tone, and nickel-plated steel 3250 Super Bullets, which offer characteristic tonal power and durability (both pictured below)





Elantric

#43
QuoteHe'll be interested to hear your endorsement.  He's also a surf player:  http://www.facebook.com/NorthShoreTroubadours

Cool!

The huge advantage of Fender Bullet strings on a Jazzmaster tremolo equipped guitar is I no longer break strings at the tremolo. With regular strings i was always breaking Strings right at the Jazzmaster tremolo String holder.



musicman65

#44
Mochchoi,

Yeah...my stock trems worked just like yours. All was good as long as I bumped the trim before chording. I could wail away on it and perform all manner of acrobatics....so long as I bump the trim last. Otherwise the binding over the saddles, trem plate, nut, trees, and posts would cause things to be a bit flat. One wack on the term and everything would relax and return to pitch. I never could solve this and moved on to a locking trem. I'm glad yours works and wish I knew your secret!

After lots of reading, it seems the general consensus is that a stock trem has to be tended to to make it work. Some do it by second nature and its not an issue. Others don't mind being out of tune (Hendrix). Others have a dedicated guitar tech with special setup tricks (lubes, etc) like SRV. I can make a stock term work but it annoys me. Others are lucky and have the rare setup that really works.

Edit: Bullets do help and are recommended but never solved it completely for me. I may be overly pitch sensitive. Even tempered scale harmony differences annoy me at times.

bd

Elantric

#45
For any Strat  - here is what I do

1) Install Locking Tuners, or use the original 1957 style Kluson type, but employ a special restring procedure with less than one wrap on each tuner ( with a reverse direction self locking loop under the string)


Avoid too many wraps on the Tuners! Better still - use Locking Tuners and never more than one wrap on the tuners

2) Install a Self-Lubricated Nut, pay attention that no Nut slots are too tight for the strings.

Graphtech TUSQ XL Nut
http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=5

If you need an education, get a Sharpie Marking pen, draw a line only on the top of six strings at the Nut - then move the Tremolo. Observe the movement of the strings at the Nut. In a pinch dry Ivory Soap works as a Nut Lube.

I own these Nut Slot Files, to open up nut slots that are too tight

http://www.warmoth.com/Nut-Files-Set-of-3-P44C215.aspx


3) Be sure your Neck to Body angle is correct and that the Stock Bridge saddles are located with proper string height / downward pressure for sustain. Shim Neck if needed.
     

4) Drill out the Steel tremolo Block, to shorten the "non speaking" string length at the tremolo.
My Strats are yet another 1/2" deeper drilled than this one here:


musicman65

Elantric,

Great tips! Here's another one. The non speaking portion of string from saddle to ball seat has to move as tension changes. Shortening this is a great idea. One of the hang points is the sharp angle passing though the trem plate. Rounding and polishing the edges of these holes helps.

Btw, I've got a drawer full of old trems I've experimented on. I even ran a long thin button head machine screw through each hole in the trem plate and tightened with a nut on the backside of the sustain block to make a locking mechanism on a stock trem. It worked pretty good actually. :)

bd


mockchoi

Quote from:  musicman65 on March 13, 2013, 12:34:13 PM
Mochchoi,

Yeah...my stock trems worked just like yours. All was good as long as I bumped the trim before chording. I could wail away on it and perform all manner of acrobatics....so long as I bump the trim last. Otherwise the binding over the saddles, trem plate, nut, trees, and posts would cause things to be a bit flat. One wack on the term and everything would relax and return to pitch. I never could solve this and moved on to a locking trem. I'm glad yours works and wish I knew your secret!

After lots of reading, it seems the general consensus is that a stock trem has to be tended to to make it work. Some do it by second nature and its not an issue. Others don't mind being out of tune (Hendrix). Others have a dedicated guitar tech with special setup tricks (lubes, etc) like SRV. I can make a stock term work but it annoys me. Others are lucky and have the rare setup that really works.

Edit: Bullets do help and are recommended but never solved it completely for me. I may be overly pitch sensitive. Even tempered scale harmony differences annoy me at times.

bd

Pretty much what Elantric said, though I've never gone to the trouble of drilling out the block.  But the main thing is the trem has to be set floating (If I set one dive-only I can't get it to stay in tune for beans) and the string/spring tension has to be matched.  There are different ways you can do this, but I basically get the trem floating about how I want it, block it, tune it, take the block out, then adjust the springs until the guitar is almost in tune.  Then repeat.

Elantric

#48
On my Strat with a vintage 6 screw tremolo, I set it up with 3 springs, adjust the trem so its down travel only - ( at rest the bridge sits flush on top of the body with no upward tremolo Arm bends). its crucial to have the correct Neck to body angle.

On the front face of the vintage 6 screw tremolo,  I will remove the 2 center screws, leave the two stock screws under both "E" strings alone, but replace the two screws next to these with a pair of Fender Countersink head Strap Button Screws

http://www.stratcat.biz/268-579.shtml



Gently tighten these countersink head screws only just enough to allow smooth full pivot action of the Tremolo Plate / Block, without the typical mid travel "clunk". 
=====

For a full floating tremolo, a completely different method is swap out ALL Six stock Fender Tremolo Plate screws, and replace with the custom PRS Tremolo Screws. These have a custom Notch in the body of the shoulder screw under the Head, where the tremolo plate may pivot.

http://shop.headlinemusic.co.uk/product-details.aspx?product=144
These PRS Tremolo Screws are unique, and depending on your existing Tremolo Plate, may provide 6 knife edges for a full floating tremolo.


Elantric

#49
Lots of detailed info on Strat Tremolo Setup options is here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5152.0

What you describe above is how bulk of my stock Strats are setup. In 1981 Lawrence Juber showed me the reverse wrapping the string end on the tuner post to lock it in place trick, AND USE LESS THAN ONE WRAP! and that knowledge helps big time.

this diagram matches 100% how I string my guitars, and as i said - Lawrence Juber showed me this same technique in 1981 


My old trick I have been doing since 1983



  Although I typically adjust the tremolo so it only pushes downward, as I tend to plant my palm at the bridge when picking which presents problems with floating tremolo guitars for me.

Only Floating Trem guitar I can play with a stock Strat bridge is one that also has a SuperVee MagLok,


which secures the bridge at the "zero point" with a powerful magnet that allows me to do heavy palm muting yet the guitar remains stable and in tune like a Hard Tail Strat, but I can still bend upwards on the bar when needed.


Reduce the "non speaking string length"  - Drill the Tremolo Block so the ball ends sit closer to the bridge saddles.


My Tremolo Blocks are drilled deeper than these depicted here:



And I use Fender Super Bullet Strings, Lubricated Nut and Locking tuners.


And can still stay in tune even after severe tremolo bar use, and still be able to bend strings "behind the Nut"  like Jerry Donahue / Adrian Belew