GP-10 - DSP Alt Tune Anomalies

Started by djidoe, February 25, 2015, 12:27:51 PM

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Redvers

Is the modelling noise reduction on? I leave it off. Also the regular ns is on and in a silly place when you initialise a patch. Very annoying.

admin

#51
Quote
The alt tune is OK unless I let it ring out
Then it crashes into noise / artifacts
It's most prominent on acoustic sim and barytone or reverse Nashville tuning
Not so much on one octave up or down
It's a bit worse when using Fernandez sustainer , but on all the VGS
Nothing like this ever occurred

Anyone else ???

What you describe is exactly why many here purchased ATG-1 instead
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.0


Brak(E)man

#52
Quote from:  admsustainiac on April 16, 2016, 01:11:41 PM
What you describe is exactly why many here purchased ATG-1 instead
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13752.msg127723#msg127723
Ok so not only me

Quote from:  Redvers on April 16, 2016, 11:34:03 AM
Is the modelling noise reduction on? I leave it off. Also the regular ns is on and in a silly place when you initialise a patch. Very annoying.

I've tried all settings with Noise Reduction
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

djidoe

Too bad...

I was having those problems with my GP10... The store where I bought it give my money back.

After that I bought the ATG-1. I'm now using the ATG-1 to tune and alt detune my guitar on all my gigs. I'm using it live without artifacts with great success !

ATG-1 is the way tao go if you want on-the-fly alt tunings.

Redvers

Could someone post a clip because I'd be interested in hearing the problem. Like I said I get the odd whammy type fart but nothing serious. maybe it's because all the cover songs my band plays don't stop for air so I just don't hear it.

admin

#55
Read
GP-10  - DSP Alt Tune Anomalies
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13752.msg127723#msg127723

but looks like DJidoe removed his wav file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hu6j6egr6gjpx7e/Artifact%20GP10.wav?dl=0


Read update on the Antares ATG-1  -( no drop tuning anomalies experienced here )
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.msg102454#msg102454



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.msg102803#msg102803
Djidoe wrote>
Quote« Reply #164 on: March 28, 2015, 12:23:46 PM »

Hi !

I did receive my ATG-1 yesterday and I'm really blown away !

Everything is great !

I'm really a power user. I'm playing in a trio situation with looping, detuning, sequence, sync video projection and I will exploit the full potential of the ATG-1. We play rock covers from Stone Temple Pilots to Metallica and Iron Maiden. My singer/bass player use a VB-99 and is not a screamin singer like Bruce Dickinson ! So a lot of down tuning.

The ATG-1 do not create any artifacts with sustained chords when down tuning (as opposed to a Boss GP-10).

The Windows editor is really great and the ATG-1 is so simple to understand... no heavy lurning curve...

The acoustic guitars sound great when EQed and compressed. I agree that the Variax was better sounding (before FW 2). But ATG-1 acoustic guitars are usable.

MIDI implementation is also great. Simple to use with SONAR for Program Changes... except you have to uncheck something in a MIDI menu (Zero controllers when play stop).

More later...


snhirsch wrote>
QuoteJust finished a couple of hours of playing on the ATG-1 and must say I'm extremely impressed.  The modeling is superb!  Just blows away the Variax and GR-55 for the models where they intersect.  Pitch shift is utterly devoid of audible artifacts - at least to my ears.  Acoustic models do not (thankfully) try to incorporate room acoustics, which may be why there have been some mixed reaction to them.  If run through an FRFR speaker, the net effect is very good when you step away a few feet.

The items that don't get good marks:  Lack of a USB interface (had to order an M-Audio Minisport 1x1 to use the patch manager and/or update firmware) and cheesy power adapter with very short cord.  The latter item seems very vulnerable, but I admit to a special hatred for those little coaxial connectors so maybe it's just me.


Basically, with the Boss GP-10 during DSP Alt tuning mode,  if you play fast runs you never experience a problem  - but when you allow long held chords to ring out , after 10 seconds as the string vibration energy dissipates, you may encounter dissonant off pitch error notes. Increasing the GP-10's GK String sensitivity helps combat the problem.

djidoe

Quote from: Redvers on April 19, 2016, 12:30:44 PM
Could someone post a clip because I'd be interested in hearing the problem. Like I said I get the odd whammy type fart but nothing serious. maybe it's because all the cover songs my band plays don't stop for air so I just don't hear it.

Here is a link to a clip I recorded last year :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gucw6irnrf6t3nz/Artifact%20GP10.mp3?dl=0


Listen to the end of the MP3 file !

Elantric

Djidoe

Thanks for re-uploading your  GP-10 Alt Tune anomaly example

Brak(E)man

Quote from: admsustainiac on April 19, 2016, 02:03:00 PM
Read
GP-10  - DSP Alt Tune Anomalies
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13752.msg127723#msg127723

but looks like DJidoe removed his wav file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hu6j6egr6gjpx7e/Artifact%20GP10.wav?dl=0


Read update on the Antares ATG-1  -( no drop tuning anomalies experienced here )
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.msg102454#msg102454



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.msg102803#msg102803
Djidoe wrote>

snhirsch wrote>

Basically, with the Boss GP-10 during DSP Alt tuning mode,  if you play fast runs you never experience a problem  - but when you allow long held chords to ring out , after 10 seconds as the string vibration energy dissipates, you may encounter dissonant off pitch error notes. Increasing the GP-10's GK String sensitivity helps combat the problem.

Not mine
I've upped the setting all the way to clipping
And downwards as well

And even with sustainer the artifacts occur
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

QuoteNot mine
I've upped the setting all the way to clipping
And downwards as well

And even with sustainer the artifacts occur

Does  this same phenomena occur on your other Roland VG/GR V-Guitar gear?

Quotehey all out there.
I play 6,12,25 String Fretted and Fretless Virtual Guitar, Live Loops
and 6,12, String Fretted and Fretless Acoustic Guitar, Live Loops

I'm from sweden and half british with an american wife
commuting the puddle between the Deep South and the High North

i've played VG exclusively since 98 & recorded a number of Cds
with VG8 and VG88 , I'm still using both in the studio as well as a VG99 that
got left behind on the last trip ( need an extra one so if someone has one for sale )
but I'm only using the VG88 live so far.
The VG 99 needs more tweaking , I only had it for 4 or so years.
Using a Boss DD-20 gigadelay ( and some software ones too )
for looping instead of the repeater and lexicon jamman
that sits in a corner of the studio
here's a link to my website

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Elantric on April 19, 2016, 10:12:14 PM
Does  this same phenomena occur on your other Roland VG/GR V-Guitar gear?

No , they all sounds great with or without sustainer or fretted , fretless
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

shawnb

#61
I don't have a gp-10, but I have experienced similar issues on certain gr-55 cosm voices. 

This thread describes the odd settings required to address:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8305.msg59242#msg59242

It would be interesting to know if these settings help on the gp-10 as well.

On the gr-55, turning the amp sim ON helps, as does turning the MOD NS  off (even if the MOD is off...).
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

admin

#62
QuoteOn the gr-55, turning the amp sim ON helps, as does turning the MOD NS  off (even if the MOD is off...).

Compare to GR-55,  the GP-10 signal chain architecture is very different  - no "Mod N.S." on the GP-10

Instead there are these two:
*  COSM Modeling Guitar N.S.
*  Re-routable Signal  N.S.

As seen here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11879.0

shawnb

Thanks.  If I had a GP-10, I'd experiment with those two NS settings (and the amp setting), but I don't. 

It made a massive difference on held notes on the GR-55 for certain COSM voices.   It's possible these COSM quirks are getting carried forward. 

If someone could test this, it may help. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Brak(E)man

I have but I'll give it a go again
Better one time too many , right ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

carlb

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

carlb

Found something interesting. Was getting the "warbles" on some open tunings on the GP-10. Nothing as bad as on the '55 or the '99, but still noticeable.

RMC bridge and Richard's 13-pin setup.

I have post bridge damped with felt, so at least that's not it. Not a whammy-setup guitar, so no springs to be vibrating.

Got the warbles going on a few chords, and noticed something odd. Pluck one string, and another string would kick-in sympathetically. Warble kicks-in when the sympathetic string started to ring.

When I'd dampen all strings but the plucked string, no warbles.

What I've been hearing is not a problem with the GP-10, but just plain dumb physics. A bit of acoustic/mechanical feedback kicking another string to vibrate.

I'm guessing this is old news, but just in case thought I'd report this.

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

admin

#67
QuoteFound something interesting. Was getting the "warbles" on some open tunings on the GP-10. Nothing as bad as on the '55 or the '99, but still noticeable.

RMC bridge and Richard's 13-pin setup.

I have post bridge damped with felt, so at least that's not it. Not a whammy-setup guitar, so no springs to be vibrating.

Got the warbles going on a few chords, and noticed something odd. Pluck one string, and another string would kick-in sympathetically. Warble kicks-in when the sympathetic string started to ring.

When I'd dampen all strings but the plucked string, no warbles.

What I've been hearing is not a problem with the GP-10, but just plain dumb physics. A bit of acoustic/mechanical feedback kicking another string to vibrate.

I'm guessing this is old news, but just in case thought I'd report this.
What you describe above is also known as "adjacent string crosstalk" - this phenomena creates many problems for DSP Alt Tuning and Guitar to MIDI functions for any vendor's DSP Modeling guitar system ( Roland Boss / Antares / Line-6)

You can see this on the VG-8 / VG-88 / VG-99 / GR-55 String Sensitivity setting display. Pluck the "D" string, and if the "A" and "G" string meters also move, then you have a divided PU with high "adjacent string crosstalk".

In my experience a properly installed magnetic hex PU yields the lower "adjacent string crosstalk", and least warbles
and a Ghost Piezo system yields the higher "adjacent string crosstalk", and most warbles.

carlb

Thanks. I did break down and purchase a Roland-ready Strat (older ~2000) to try the mag hex pickup, it should be here any day. It will be interesting to compare the piezo to the magnetic pickups.

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Brak(E)man

I've had no problems with artifacts or warbles on VG 8, 88 , 99 only on Gp10 ,
same guitars GK2
I havent had time to try again but I have tried all I can think of.
But I'll give it a go as soon as I'm able to.

Unfortunatly I beleive this to be a GP related problem, not a setting , noise gate , noise reducer but a HUGE goof from boss / Roland

I don't use that that many alt tunings , but the ones that I do use, they're not really working on gp10 , tuning down one octave or up NOT playing chords and letting it ring out seems ok
But not with alt tuned chords like , reverse Nashville , barytone ,4th up,  12 string in unison or in 4ths or 5ths etc they all have this problem and that's to fing bad !
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Majiken

I'm just now deep-diving the GP-10 on alt. tunings with my old Godin LGX-T with an LR Baggs trem bridge and am being disturbed for the first time by the "warbles." It also happens when I play the piezo "acoustic" with the 1/4" plug and goes away when I damp the other strings as carlb mentioned, so the "adjacent string crosstalk" seems to be the issue in my case.  But why didn't it happen before?  Does the GP10 mitigate the problem?  I'll plug into something else this weekend and see if I reproduce it elsewhere.

I've gotten to wondering about a workaround... I have a GK3 I could slap on a PRS Classic Electric and see what happens there.  Damn, I love my LGXT- do the latest RMCs offer the least crosstalk of piezos, and do they offer a "drop-in" replacement trem for the LGXT?  Need to contact Godin.  Or, maybe I need to just bite the bullet and go out and buy the ATG luthier kit like I've been thinking of for so long.  I need them good alternate tunings!!!! ???
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Elantric

Depending on your Alt tuning needs- yes the GP-10 suffers warbles or worse  - particularly if you are attempting large drops in pitch.

I found my GK-3 worked a bit better (less warbles) than my Godin with RMC.

But try lowering your GK string sensitivity on GP-10, as that can lower the adjacent string crosstalk which is a common cause of DSP Alt Tuning  warbles 

johnnyninja

#72
I want to experiment with fourths tuning so I'm trying to set up a patch with the E/B string set to C/F. The sound that is produced sounds like a combination of the 'normal' tuning and the half step at the same time. I notice that as I raise the pitch to a step, two steps, etc. the problem resolves itself.

Is there any way to get a half step to behave?

Thanks

Elantric

#73
Dropping down a 4th on low E is difficult for the GP-10

If this is essential to you , consider an Antares ATG-1 system

Start here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13752.0

hading

I think johnnyninja is not trying to drop a fourth, he's trying to raise the two highest strings each a half step so that he has a pure fourths tuning.

johnnyninja - I assume you've heard the standard spiel about the acoustic sound of the strings and so on and have confirmed that that isn't what is going on?