GP-10 - DSP Alt Tune Anomalies

Started by djidoe, February 25, 2015, 12:27:51 PM

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Elantric

#100
QuoteThe ATG-1 is the size of a small continent.

Agreed - I informed Antares that ATG-1 is "too big" for most gigging / working guitarists.

The ATG-1 inner working are essentially the ATG Internal Luthier kit DSP with a integrated MIDI controller dedicated for the ATG DSP board control.

(Review the MIDI specs for ATG Internal Luthier kit  vs ATG-1 and see the similarities)

but know they upped the internal Memory on the ATG-1, and many of the upcoming options (like the new Pedal Steel Algorithm only work with  ATG-1 only     

vtgearhead

Quote from: carlb on July 08, 2016, 09:41:29 AM
The ATG-1 is the size of a small continent.

It is sizable, but since all parameters and settings respond to MIDI it can be stuck in a rack somewhere and accessed from a more modestly-sized floor controller.  I plan to drive both my Fender Mustang amp and the ATG-1 from a Behringer FCB1010, which will be the only thing on the floor in front of me.

drbill

Quote from: snhirsch on July 08, 2016, 05:12:32 PM
It is sizable, but since all parameters and settings respond to MIDI it can be stuck in a rack somewhere and accessed from a more modestly-sized floor controller.  I plan to drive both my Fender Mustang amp and the ATG-1 from a Behringer FCB1010, which will be the only thing on the floor in front of me.

Well, if they'd cut the width down a few inches it would fit inside a rack & I'd just do that. I think I'll need to just carry it in a bag a set it on the floor next to the rack.

Funny how we've got an ATG thread going now in the GP-10 section.  ;D

They also need to fix the MIDI connection problems with their software. I don't know how hard this is on Windows, but it's less than trivial on a Mac. They told me they were going to do this 4-5 months ago. It's obviously not a priority, so who knows when it will happen.

I should just forget about using their software and set up a range of guitar presets and then do everything else (pickup selection, tuning) via MIDI CC. I pretty much have to bring my computer anyway if I'm going to integrate it with the Kemper (which won't send CC).
GP-10, KPA
BM i2.13p, '76 Les Paul Deluxe w/GK-3, MiM RRS, Ibanez RG420GK, Charvel strat copy w/GK-2a, FTP

djidoe

Hi ATG-1 is really too big for me too but I decided to buy a custom rack to carry me AxeFX + ATG-1...

Here it is :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndcral8kp4s2qxz/Axe%2BATG.JPG?dl=0

whippinpost91850

drbill, Sounds like we both have the same issues with our Kemper not sending CCs hope fully they will have that fixed soon. ???

Elantric

Quotedrbill, Sounds like we both have the same issues with our Kemper not sending CCs hope fully they will have that fixed soon. ???

Anytime I mention to Kemper at trade shows that their KPA is Lacking MIDI CC transmission, I get told that MIDI control has already been implemented

I tell them we need this to control third party gear using the KPA and Kemper Footcontrol  , All I get is a blank stare because third party gear is " not their problem"
So don't hold your breath

whippinpost91850

Well, I'm gonna hope for a little while longer. But I almost just bought a AXE FX this week and I may still do that next time they have a sale. PC'c are just not enough

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#108
FWIW - This past weekend I have had to cram and learn lots of new songs in various alt &  drop tunings - using a small mobile setup

Using my Godin LGX-SA with Bigsby Tremolo and Fender 10-52 Bullet strings and one 13 pin cable feeding my GP-10, with  old Boss Tone Studio 1.0 running on a Macbook Pro with Mavericks

and  for its excellent A/B Repeat feature to learn solos. I'm using a Sony M10 Recorder to  playback the songs i need to learn (Sony M10 Headphone out to GP-10 Aux Input) - instead of the limited function Boss Tone Studio Audio player


Observations 

For the music I need to play, I experienced no warbling problems with the Godin LGX-SA with RMC pickups feeding the GP-10 .
On the GP-10, I'm still using the RMC Piezo GK Settings explained here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.25
QuoteIn System, Set the GK PU type to:
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  ST
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
NORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    -2
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   -3

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings (does not matter GR-55 ignores this for all Piezo PU selections)

"SEN"
Set the sensitivities for all strings to "50" average (+/-5  - that is all my strings have sensitivity set in the range between 45-55 .
(Note: Godin's older than 2012, might work better with Sensitivity set to "0")

"VEL"
Velocity Dynamics :  2
Play-Feel         :  2 (may vary depending on how you play synth tones)
Low-Velocity Cut  :  8-9

"NUA"
Nuance Dynamics   :  4
Nuance Trim       :  4

"DOW"
Shift   :   0
===============

I started with GP-10 factory preset #31 "LEAD CTL1=2" and using Boss Tone Studio I altered the drop tuning to -3 steps on all strings (Drop C# Tuning)   -works great, and created a few other patches based upon factory preset #31 with  drop tuning to  -4  steps and easily matched the Tone of the tune I needed to learn  sounded great and no warbles for me - and no problems integrating the GP-10 setup into what I need for upcoming gigs in small venues this summer.     

I will point out that the music I'm performing has no long held chords, mostly single lines and a few power chords  and no requirement for one alt tuned chord to  ring out for longer than 15 seconds.
I will state that GP-10's DSP Alt Tuning remains good and clean  - but if playing on headphones,  if I disable all GP-10's Noise Gate suppressors and  hold out one GP-10 DSP Drop Tuning chord and let it ring out for 30 seconds, it will start warbling around 25 seconds as the string vibrations decay below the threshold for accurate detection by the GP-10.   

Richard McClish at RMC will tell you reason RMC Piezos cost more than the competition is the attention to minimize adjacent string mechanically induced string to string "crosstalk" at the bridge - which is unique to RMC Piezo pickups, and matches my real world experience when comparing a 13 pin guitar with RMC pickups vs a 13 pin guitar with Graphtech Ghost Piezos. I have yet to have a good experience with the later.     


High amounts of Hex PU string to string crosstalk will make DSP Alt Tunings suffer faster onset of warble anomalies.     

What I do complain about is no A/B Repeat function for the audio player in Boss Tone Studio  - the BTS  Audio Player's "loop" function  appears to be  more suitable for playing a group of backup tracks at a live solo gig from your laptop.

I do appreciate the great headphone amp built into the GP-10 and its clean Aux Stereo input - allows me to jam along with any third party hardware box, MP-3 player, Synth Keyboard  / Sequencer that has a 3.5mm headphone jack audio feed  - no need for a separate mixer.

The BTS quick access to the GP10 User Alt Tunings is a real tool, allows instant swift exploration without a lot of fuss, the GP-10 is a Swiss army knife all in one box   

The GP-10 is really a great tool for every Gk 13 pin guitarist   


Side note - I was going to use a JTV-59 with a Helix, but Line6 Variax Workbench HD still does not run with Helix, and I did not want to haul lots of gear and cables that would have been required just to do what the Godin / GP-10 / Boss Tone Studio  combo does   

and still the Antares ATG-1 remains "too big to fit in the bag for the gig"

Brak(E)man

My problem with alt is with chords that are not power chords
Not at all with single lines
And the fact that it's only with the Gp not with the VGs
Same guitars etc
So I'm still wondering why it's a big problem for some
and not at all for others
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#110
QuoteSo I'm still wondering why it's a big problem for some
and not at all for others
It remains an issue worth more exploration

we know this GP-10 Alt Tuning patch (at link below) does warble anytime you play a "C" chord"

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13752.0;attach=11251

Yet my Alt tuned patches (based upon GP-10 factory preset #31) do not suffer any issues


Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

alexmcginness

OK Ive noticed that when I use my strat with the gk 3 on it I dont get the warbles but when I use my Traveller escape with a GK 3 I do. So its seems to be down to the guitar or the way the GK is installed on it. I think in my case its that the Traveller is more microphonic than the Strat Im using in the studio. Adjusting string sensitivities for the Traveller does nothing to change it. Ive lowered the sensitivity and it still warbles on the open A string.
   Also, I did notice the same bug in the Nylon model as in the VG 99 but the cure for that is to put the GK sensitivity up for those patches.
   I dont get the warbles using the traveller with my VG-99 so there must be something different going on with the GP 10.

       The struggle continues......
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Majiken

Has anyone tried the Schaller Hannes system for 13-pin? They claim that with individual saddles and no metal, plus no direct contact from the piezo to the string their crosstalk is the least of piezos today.

Unhappy to hear of the troubles with the GK3, about to install an external system on a PRS 24-fret Classic Electric and compare it with my old LGXT and its LR Baggs bridge....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

johnnyninja

I haven't done a whole lot with alt turnings, but I have tried tuning down a 5th to simulate a seven string. When I do this, I get a fifth harmonic on the A string after a few seconds. One day I put a capo right over the zero fret ( Carvin headless hh2x) and the problem stopped. So it seems the GP 10 is quite sensitive. Some guitars will trigger the problems and others won't.

Elantric

many guitars do benefit from installation of string dampers over all exposed "non speaking" string lengths (i.e. above the nut and below the bridge)   
String Dampers - Improves DSP Modeling, Alt Tuning, GTR-MIDI
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1397.0

Ol55

Steve- I'm working on my patch set for a small GP-10 "Grab & Go" rig like yours. I just updated my old Godin LGX-SA with new pickups and electronics from Richard so I can now compare the performance of my GK-equipped guitars with an updated RMC controller. I have three questions:

1.) How are you amplifying your GP-10; FRFR or small guitar amp like your Boss or Quilter?
2.) Are you bringing along your MacBook to tweak patches at the gig with the Boss editor?
3.) Are you using the Godin's conventional pickups on any of your patches that don't require alt tuning?

Thanks so much for everything you contribute to this forum!
GR-300, GR-1, VG-8EX x2, VG-99, GP-10, BK-10, MIDX-10, V-Bass, TAG Crowdster+GK, Fender GC-1, Godin LGX-SA, Roland G-505, CPS Space Station III                           
"Hair is the first thing. And teeth the second. Hair and teeth. A man got those two things he's got it all." James Brown

Elantric

#117
Quote1.) How are you amplifying your GP-10; FRFR or small guitar amp like your Boss or Quilter?

This is for playing 3 hour gig in a small bar and only vocals  are in the PA mains   

I do have many options - but for grab and go and the knowledge of how to achieve whats required in "real time" at the gig (few surprises)  - I use Godin LGX-SA into Boss GP-10. The GP-10 "Guitar Output" feeds a typical FX pedal board
1 ) genuine 1963 Fender Tube Reverb(only when I need surf tones) >
2 )  Barber Tone Press (- always on with "Blend' control at 9:00 o'clock ) >
3 )  EXH Glove OD (only when I need distortion / crunch >
4 ) Boss LS-2 (only as a +6dB Solo Booster) >
5 ) Roland Volume Pedal >
6 ) Line-6 Echo Park delay >
7 ) Cube 80 XL JC Clean channel (Volume  at 9:00 o'clock, all tone controls at 12:00 o'clock ),  I use my KustomKat remote Cube80 XL footswitch for the Cube80XL's FX ( Delay  on/off, tap tempo, tremolo, occasional plate reverb, occasional Solo boost . )  - I love the built in delay on the Cube80XL, and that lack of this restricts my Quilter use. I rarely use the Cube 80's Channel 2  - mostly only if I have a pedal board failure mid gig and "the show must go on"  - prefer the tone I get with my EHX Glove OD feeding the Cube 80 XL's JC Clean channel all night   

On tunes where I need the GP-10's alt tuning I feed the GP-10's 3.5mm TRS headphone output into the Cube 80XL's rear 3.5mm TRS "Aux/MP3" input  - use the GP-10's Output level control to set the GP-10's max volume, and ride the GP-10 onboard Expression Pedal to hear the GP-10  - only as needed.   

I can use the three way switch on my Godin LGX-SA to select Guitar only ( use above FX board) or GP-10 Alt Tuning only

I always use the GP-10 with a Roland EV-5 expression pedal, as that yields the most control for me.   

Quote2.) Are you bringing along your MacBook to tweak patches at the gig with the Boss editor?

Typically only use the laptap with Boss Tone Studio for tweaking during rehearsal - leave laptop home because no room for it at gigs 


Quote3.) Are you using the Godin's conventional pickups on any of your patches that don't require alt tuning?

I use the excellent sounding stock Godin Seymour Duncans 99% of the time  - i could never play a whole night at a gig with only the hex PU feed. I still find all these DSP modelers  "two dimensional"   


QuoteThanks so much for everything you contribute to this forum!
You are welcome!

Brak(E)man



This type of playing with this tuning
and this guitar with or without sustainer
has never been a problem before city the vgs
and the trig on the osc synth agh
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Smash

Not something stupid like noise suppressor settings?

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Smash on July 23, 2016, 11:22:17 PM
Not something stupid like noise suppressor settings?

I'd wish but unfortunately not
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric



QuoteThe only issue Im having with this is that for some reason, this guitar produces alternate tuning anomalies when I use it with the GP-10

The Travelers are fine instruments and intonation is fine for an "acoustic like" guitar

But frankly  - I attribute the lack of individual string intonation on that specific Traveler Guitar Model as a major contributory factor for the poor GSP-10 DSP Alt Tuning anomalies you experience.
The only VGuitar System I know that can cope with a guitar with poor intonation is the Antares ATG systems.



If you read the Roland / Boss Manuals  - they have specific verbage mentioning the importance of guitar setup and String intonation (Faulty Octave Adjustment) for good results with their DSP Modeling technology 

Brak(E)man

Then my fretlesses would be in dire strait :)
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#123
QuoteThen my fretlesses would be in dire strait :)

Agreed! Fretless "V-Guitars" will be a battle with Line-6 or Roland DSP modeling tech -


Which is why Dweezil Zappa  uses Antares Internal Kit with his Fretless Gibson SG

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13462.msg115188#msg115188






QuoteDweezil Zappa wrote>
Quote
I've been waiting over a year for this instrument to be completed. It is a unique custom guitar specially built for me. It is a fretless SG made by Gibson that includes 2 very important modifications. The first is Auto Tune for guitar by Antares. This micro computer device processes each string individually with extremely low latency and can not only keep your guitar in tune; it can instantly tune the entire instrument to other tunings, open string chords and more. In fact it can process each string individually twice, allowing for 12 string sounds or even baritone 12 string. Most importantly however is the fact that since this particular guitar has no frets it will enable me to do some physically impossible things. Typically a fretless guitar would be impossible to use for chords. Anteres Auto Tune will allow me to play chords on fretless guitar and venture into new musical territory. This is very exciting and inspirational! I anticipate pedal steel type harmony slides and other unique chordal sliding techniques to develop. But that's not all...

The other component of this guitar that will propel me in new territory is the Sustainiac. It will allow for infinite sustain with the ability to switch between the fundamental and other partial harmonics.

What does this mean?

I can control the octave of the feedback generated and I can slide the notes on the guitar smoothly without effortless sustain. This will all translate to many new creative approaches to lead guitar for me. There are so many variations of dynamics to be developed.

The first chapter will be written on this new album. I have 2 instrumentals I plan to use the guitar on. One is currently called "Truth" and the other is called "Funky 15." The titles may change by the time the record comes out. One thing is certain though, this guitar will be a big part of the sound of those 2 songs. I anticipate a whole new melodic style to develop over the next few years. A more vocal approach to melodies and some totally unique tones. For me this feels like the equivalent of walking on the moon.

In any case, I'm very excited about the record and all of the cool things I've been able to incorporate into it. I've got live string quartet and brass and woodwinds (recorded by Geoff Emerick), special vocal appearances from some extremely talented people (To be named later!) and I even have my wife Megan, my daughters Zola and Ceylon as well as my step daughter Mia all singing some background parts on the song "On Fire."

I can't wait to share the record with all of you! The countdown to completion is on! Then we hit the road in March! So much to do and so little time! See you on the road!


Regards, DZ
New Record! http://www.pledgemusic.com/projects/dweezilzappa

alexmcginness

#124
Quote" But frankly  - I attribute the lack of individual string intonation on that specific Traveler Guitar Model as a major contributory factor for the poor GSP-10 DSP Alt Tuning anomalies you experience.
The only VGuitar System I know that can cope with a guitar with poor intonation is the Antares ATG systems.
"

I might agree except I dont experience the anomalies when using the Traveller with the VG-99. So it would seem that theres two systems that are forgiving of intonation issues.
  The GP-10 seems sensitive to "something" that the 99 isnt. One of my Strats needs intonating ( Im lazy ) and that guitar when plugged into the GP10, still works without issues. This leads me to believe that its something other than intonation.
   I keep trying to introduce anomalies using the guitars that have no issues to "reverse engineer" the problem. The only other solution I can think of is to grab one of these new Travellers and put the one I have and the new one in the same case when Im flying,  and when I need alt tuning with the GP10 just change guitars.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.