GR-55 -record the output of a GR55 from a speaker instead of line out?

Started by sonnyv, March 04, 2014, 11:01:28 PM

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sonnyv

I'm wondering if I can obtain a more airy, natural sound by miking the output of the GR55 through a full-range speaker instead of recording via the line out. Logically, the GR55 sounds were designed to simulate the live experience and a line out would be the cleaner method -- eliminating the limitations of both the speaker, the mic, and the room. And yet, there is always that drive to warm up the sound any way possible.

Anyone have any recording experience with this method (and thoughts on miking 2 speaker outputs for stereo patches)?

alexmcginness

I use a zoom R-16 live for my one man shows. I record myself every night and I started recording myself using the 2 built in mics as well as recording on individual tracks recently. What a difference when you bring in the tracks recorded with the mics into the mix. Adds tons of air and space to the mix.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

sonnyv

Thanks Alex. Will you record all your GR55 tracks using mics from now on or are there situations when you will still record your line out?

alexmcginness

Ill always record line out but will always mix some ambience with a stereo pair of mics for the finished product. I would suggest you experiment and find what works best for your situation.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Elantric

when combining VG-99/GR-55 direct out sounds and mics  -The distance the Mics are placed plays a significant role in the sound.
Suggested the links below for further reading

Advice when running multiple Guitar Amps on Stage
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8161.0

Brian May Patch Competition
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2875.0;nowap

sonnyv

Yes, the best option would seem to be to record the line in at the same time as the mics in and mix them to taste. I will use the mid-side mic technique (a vertically aligned figure 8 pattern condenser for the sides with a cardioid mic for the front) so that the tracks can be panned to taste in the mix afterwards.

I should mention that I don't exactly trust my "taste" anymore at age 55 since my high frequency perception has diminished. That's why the opinion and experience of others is helpful.

sonnyv

thanks Elantric. I'll look into that. I suspected this wouldn't be as simple as it sounds (no pun intended).

Elantric

Typically The recording Producer listens to the combined "mix" of all sources for the guitar being recorded (DI Box, DSP Modeler direct out, room mics, etc)  - and instructs the recording engineer to move the room microphones until it sounds good with the current song being produced. There are no hard and fast rules, and often its takes several pages and days of math analysis for a PhD to explain in full scientific detail the same "audio phase error "phenomena that a producer / engineer with good ears can set up with multiple mics in seconds for the benefit of the song and delivering "thicker sound" for the guitars. 

I suggest get a set of good closed headphones  - like Audio Technica ATH-M50S
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ZG9TMA/ref=oh_details_o08_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and have a friend play guitar, while another friend moves a few mics to separate locations (near and far from amp) in a separate room  and record all elements on separate tracks and mixed to mono  for analysis / playback review.

DO this for a day or two and you should have  better first hand knowledge of phase errors due to multiple point sources and understand when its desirable to employ them

and suggest get a copy of Howard Tremaine's AudioCyclopedia, which explains this and more audio topics 


if you are math oriented - get this book too

sonnyv

that's what I was afraid someone might mention -- phase issues!

I've earned the greater part of my living over the past 16 years as a computer programmer, but I don't like to get buried in technical issues when it comes to making music. There are so many time consuming musical choices to be made when putting a song together. Adding in technical issues for me means a project that will take forever to finish.

For example, I love the flexibility of the GR55 but at the same time I don't get too involved in the editing. On the recording end, my software is Sonar X3 and you can't escape getting buried in technology. The manual is a few pages short of 2,000.

In the interest of time, I'm going to have to trust my aging ears and stay clear of the math and that Backus book you mention. The Audiocyclopedia may be useful in more ways, however (it says it "covers every phase of the subject" but hopefully not too much phase itself).

alexmcginness

There are plugins that will phase align tracks to counter any phase issues. Record away...
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

sonnyv

ouch! Amazon's listing for the Audio Cyclopdia: 21 Used from $84.84 1 New from $604.88

I'll look into the plugins.

Elantric

Quotethere are plugins that will phase align tracks to counter any phase issues. Record away...

My point is, often the "phase issues" are desired and in the case of Brian May, an important part of his final Guitar tone on the recordings

skip the books and explore the following strategy that can become a useful tool in your arsenal of knowledge so you can employ multiple point sources on future recordings and live sound

QuoteI suggest get a set of good closed headphones  - like Audio Technica ATH-M50S
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ZG9TMA/ref=oh_details_o08_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and have a friend play guitar, while another friend moves a few mics to separate locations (near and far from amp) in a separate room  and record all elements on separate tracks and mixed to mono  for analysis / playback review.

DO this for a day or two and you should have  better first hand knowledge of phase errors due to multiple point sources  - and understand when its desirable to employ them

and read the free web resources here:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Calculations03.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(waves)


http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-timedelayphase.htm



http://mhsecure.com/products/CSGB/cs_pg2.html

sonnyv

If in-phase sound waves make a signal stronger and out of phase signal cancel each other -- make the sound weaker, it would seem that "phase issues" are always bad. But then, when you say some phase issues are desirable, I'm thinking in terms of reverb, chorus, and doubling -- which are also the out of alignment timing of the sound waves.

I appreciate the links and I'm sure others will explore further. As for me, I'm afraid I really don't have the patience. I will have to "play it by ear" (yet another pun) and hope that hit and miss doesn't take me longer than really coming to understand it all.

Elantric

QuoteIf in-phase sound waves make a signal stronger and out of phase signal cancel each other -- make the sound weaker, it would seem that "phase issues" are always bad.
Not true !

http://www.brianmay.com/queen/queennews/queennewssep13b.html


My point is if you recorded Brian May playing solos with his typical studio recording rig of multiple Vox AC30s with many mics carefully placed at different distances to enhance the notes in the key of the song   - but then after Mr May leaves and you then spend lots of time in post production "re-time realigning"  all the Guitar track's  to remove all the out of phase issues on the original tracks  (thinking this is an important task all professional studios do in post production) - then  you just spoiled and removed bulk of the essence of what we all consider to be Brian May's signature guitar tone.


http://shelf3d.com/vyyTBeAmZIc#Brian May on Vox AC30s


The earlier discussion in the thread centers on phase error in micing  multiple speakers  - but remember its important to know "phase error" can occur anywhere in the signal chain  - often with intentional results     

Do watch this video (at 1:22 minutes in) for a 1st hand lesson on the desirable "Phase Error" sound of  Out of Phase Neck and Middle pickups on Brian's Red Special

sonnyv

interesting indeed! Thanks for adding to the understanding of this topic in both words and images.

mbenigni

"Most things that are worth doing are dangerous..."  Great stuff.  :)

I love how jazzed the interviewer looks whenever May turns up, and when he plays a bit of Bohemian Rhapsody for him.