Guitar Notation Apps

Started by montyrivers, September 05, 2013, 04:50:04 AM

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montyrivers

So, I'm in the market for an updated software for making charts with tabs and notation (guitar pro 5 is still the work horse).

I have been searching for a good program to do this for what feels like years.  Other than the obvious ability to make arrangements, the program in my mind must have the ability to:

-Live record midi via a controller
-have the ability to import and export midi with relative accuracy

Basically, it all depends on MIDI because, like most musicians, I recognize that it is the universal electronic language for building session arrangements, automating, and all around making stuff work in tandem.  "No instrument is an island" and MIDI is something that aids musicians with this mindset in having some kind of workflow when jumping back and fourth between platforms


The reason I still use guitar pro 5 is because it is the only program that exports and imports midi tracks with SOME level of consistency (it's almost GM2 compliant!).  When exporting into Logic Pro and Sonar 8 the tracks are all ported over nearly flawlessly and in Pro Tools with some minor tweaking.  GP5 is great based just on this feature except it IS very dated, there are glitches, the notation is feature is very limited and even GP6 doesn't feature real time midi recording.

I looked at alternatives like Sibelius.  However, the interface seemed very foreign and needlessly complicated to me.  Also, until very recently, the program didn't even feature the ability to import and export midi data.  Importing into the program is almost unusable and exporting data into a DAW leaves you with truncated data, at best.  The program DOES let you open and play back certain plugins when composing, but the playback latency created by this just makes it a glitchy mess that will leave you mashing the panic button unless you have a very powerful music making computer; not to mention real time midi input is made impossible by said latency.  Sibelius, out.

Enter Notion.  This program caught my eye almost immediately because of the price, ipad support, an easy interface for tabbing and useable notation charting, sequencer view, the ability to open and play GP5 sessions, REALTIME MIDI RECORDING OMG@$&?&?@?$?@&!!!,and seemingly midi friendly rewire features.  Of course I jumped the gun on that last one.  I quickly encountered several annoying problems.

1) rewire really sucks.  You need to baby the hell out of this feature to get it to work with most compatible VSTi's.

2) midi/gp5 importing is, like Sibelius, very dicey.  Drums don't work.  Period.  Also you cannot use basic gm2 soundcard sounds, so your general midi arrangements will be forced through loud, obnoxious, unarticulated samples whether you want to use them or not.  Also, if your tracks have even one program change event, all bets are off.  They either won't playback or will crash the program entirely.

3)exporting midi:  The aforementioned drum problem becomes much clearer.  When sequencing drums winthin notion (which, other than the sounds, is quite enjoyable with their multivoice feature) you do indeed input note data.  However, they aren't the same notes standardized in GM to play back a kit.  When opening a notion drum track on a piano roll, you have to, one by one, drag the midi notes to their proper place on the roll so they correspond with each individual piece of the kit....  Sooooo Tedious.

Back to Guitar Pro.  Guitar Pro 6 is the "latest and greatest" that Arobas has to offer.  It features supposedly improved RSE sounds and effects (they still sound like a broken FM synth.  Gimmicky), a new interface, and.... Well yea that's it.  On to what they actually REMOVED from the Guitar Pro workflow.

-For charting drums, general midi numbers are OUT.  You can't enter in the raw midi notes using a GM kit anymore.  You have to use a tedious layout of click to enter notes.  You don't have nearly as much of a selection of sounds, either.  Worse yet, this creates the same kind of problems when exporting drum data as in Notion.

-Because of the huge focus on RSE (Real S****y Engine), the GM wavetable is turned off by default.  You either need to stomach the chinsy "FM"guitar models or re enable it.  This would be all well and good, but Arobas more or less threw the baby out with the bath water on this one. 

They seem to think their new RSE sounds so great that they have more or less removed any ability to put in GM program change information and other, relatively standardized automation moves that translate directly into useable midi information.  Ironically, this makes opening old GP4-5 sessions in GP6 problematic because of the night and day difference in the language spoken by their new sequencer.

-exporting midi, in addition to aformentioned drum changes has lead to a massive outcry by their user base.  When exporting from GP6, there is NO pitch bend data, you can't create GM program changes, notes running for longer than 1 measure are cut.  Arobas has tried to fix these issues by releasing numerous updates but the functionality enjoyed in Guitar Pro 5 been removed and developers are realizing, too late, that they simply ignored MIDI implementation altogether when creating GP6.

The developers are so inundated with emails from longtime GP users that they have resorted to using a blanket statement in reply to nearly all complaints and inquiries:  "It will be in Guitar Pro 7!"



So, now that I have raged, let me ask: 

Have any of you folks encountered any super awesome charting/tabbing programs that are midi friendly AND have real time mid recording?  Any experiences that are sympathetic to my own?  Any experiences that are not?

Elantric

#1
The app that comes bundled with Tripleplay is pretty good.

But not used the "rewire function - contact Notion tech support with your problems you listed.
Notion Progression.

They have an ipad version too.


http://www.fishman.com/software/tripleplay/help/tripleplay_tut8.pdf

http://www.notionmusic.com/products/progression2.html

Here are just a few of the features and enhancements in this newest version of Progression:

Enter, edit, and playback tab, notation, or both
Acoustic Guitar, Electric Guitar, Bass Guitar, Upright Bass, Piano, Electric Piano, Clavinet, and Drum Set samples included (add additional instruments such as Classical Guitar, Acoustic Fingerstyle Guitar, Mandolin, and Banjo)
Open Notion files
Compatible with Notion and Progression iPad products
Open Guitar Pro files (versions 3-5)
Real-time MIDI record
Step-time MIDI input
Clean and intuitive user interface
Interactive guitar fretboard, keyboard, and drumpad for fast entry
Quick and simple selection palette
Distortion and reverb effects
Full audio mixer
Convenient file sharing
Full-range of guitar functions and articulations including: bends, vibrato, slides, hammer on, pull off, mutes, whammy bar techniques, bass slap, harmonics, and more...
Insert text
Chord and melody modes
Easy delete and erase capabilities
Upload audio to SoundCloud
And much more...

System Requirements





The big version is called Notion when  composing music for Symphony


The latest version of Notion builds upon our award-winning software foundation with all new possibilities and enhancements. Notion is continuing to redefine the way notation software is used while staying true to our strengths: great playback, a simple easy-to-use interface, great compatibility, and incredible customer service.

Compose, playback, and edit music with a quality and ease of use that must be experienced. No endless level of menus to find what you need. Notion is the most efficient notation product, making it simple to write and edit your ideas quickly.

Notion gives you the best playback of any notation product. Orchestral samples recorded by the London Symphony Orchestra at Abbey Road Studios. Guitar samples by Neil Zaza, bass samples by Victor Wooten and drum samples by Roy "Futureman" Wooten.

All samples were painstakingly recorded using the best equipment by top engineers recording an array of dynamics, articulations and performance techniques.

No other product allows you to create a score on your desktop and transfer it to your iPad, where you can continue to edit and playback your music. Now, with Notion you can. If you have Notion and the Notion iPad app, you can send and open scores from each device and continue to work on your score, anywhere, anytime.

Antonuzzo

I had loads of problems with GP5 on the Mac and got the "It'll be in GP6!" responses. To their credit, they upgraded me for free...

...but as you said, we get the response "It'll be in GP7!" to every problem. This, to my mind, is not a brilliant way of working - instead of fixing legitimate problems for software that the users have paid for, they are expecting them to buy a new version instead.

montyrivers

It's a shame because I very much like guitar pro on the whole.  The company seems to have alienated their user base of songwriters and producers with this new focus on chinsy RSE garbage instead of useful, cross platform functionality.

cooltouch

I've only recently heard of Guitar Pro and even more recently heard of Notion. Of the two I've heard good things about Notion but this is hearsay so I wouldn't put much into what I say about those two products if I were you.

You did mention Sonar. I've been using it since before it was Sonar -- Pro Audio 8 and 9. Just let me say this, as a person who composes music using the musical staff and not piano rolls or loops or whatever, what I've got to hand it to the Cakewalk product is this -- its Staff interface may not be the greatest, but it gets the job done and it handle things like importing and exporting very well. I've had to do a lot of that at times.

But allow me to mention another product. I cut my teeth on composing using the musical staff on a computer with a little notation based sequencer called MidiSoft Studio. When I bought my copy, they were up to v6.0.  Studio was a deceptively simple and very capable tool. It didn't have all of the massive capabilities that Pro Audio had or Sonar has. But it did have a console view and it had the ability to record, import and export midi files.  Well unfortunately, Midisoft went belly-up some ten years ago or so, and Studio became an orphan package. Not too long after that, an outfit called RecordLab bought the rights to it and released what was essentially a bug fix of 6.0 (which it sorely needed), but it was called RecordLab Studio.  I have a copy. It doesn't like Win7, unfortunately -- crashes all the time. Maybe I should try running it in XP compatibility mode, see if it fairs any better.  Well anyway, RecordLab also went under, so Studio was orphaned once again.  Time passed. And then suddenly there was a new notation-based sequencer on the market, called Forte. It's being published by a German company now and it's up to version 4.  All Forte is is a repackaged and renamed MidiSoft Studio. But hopefully Studio's new owners have fixed its bugs. Here's the website for Studio/Forte:

http://www.fortenotation.com/en/

As you can see a free version is available. It's fully functional but it will not allow you to save files.  Personally I hate it when they hamstring a demo like that. Better to have it expire after 30 days, I feel. However, even though you can't save files, you can spend time with the program and see if it fits your needs.  Perhaps it's just me, but from day one I found the composition process to be very intuitive and I rarely had to resort to browsing through the Help section or refer to the manual.  The only thing I don't like about Forte is the price.  But that's just because I would want to buy the Premium package, which costs more than twice as much as the next comprehensive package. Although, when you look around at the other products that are out there, which is basically just Finale and Sibelius -- which are very pricey -- Fore's $219 price tag doesn't seem too bad.  Hang on a sec -- I don't know anything about Notion. And it's attractively priced. So that might just offer the most bang for the buck. They don't offer a demo, though, and a hundred bux is still a hundred bux.

Best,
Michael

montyrivers

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Michael.  I actually took the plunge and purchased Notion for PC, I enjoy it.  However, I started out using the iPad app version of the program and I find it to be a much better deal at 15 dollars + the in app purchases max out at 35 dollars.  The interface is more or less the same with some fine tuning taken out.  What you get with the pc version, of course is higher fidelity sampling, polyphony and greater functionality. 

Not sure if you own an iPad, but as far as having a mobile scratch pad for phrases and full on arrangements, Notion seems to be the hottest thing available and if you end up not falling in love with it, at worst you've spent 15 bucks and have a way to score music on the go.  I AM still divided between GP5 and Notion in my workflow, so I won't give it a full endorsement, but I think 15 bucks isn't bad for a highly functional notation sequencer w/ live midi record and good samples.

cooltouch

Thanks for the feedback, Monty.

Just so I can speak more intelligibly on the subject, I'm d/l'ing the trial version of GP 6.  Since it's called "Guitar Pro" I was concerned that it would be too limited. Like scoring for the treble clef only. But I see that the full version can handle LOTS of different instruments. So it appears to be more flexible than its name implies.  Hey, and at $59, it's priced within my spare budget as well.  That's about what I paid for MidiSoft Studio v6.


Best,
Michael

montyrivers

Beware of gp6.  A lot of those different instruments need to be purchased a la cart otherwise just use the gs wavetable.  The sound quality will be that of 8 bit video game music but all the instruments will be represented (why I like gp5).

cooltouch

Hey Monty -- you're referring to the soundbanks, right?  I've seen some discussion of this but haven't really stopped to read up on it yet.

So let me get this clear -- the older version of Guitar Pro, namely GP5, doesn't use soundbanks, which means you can use other synths to generate voices in your music?  In other words, I am not able to assign voices to any synth I want?  Geez, I could do this in that buggy version of MidiSoft Studio over 10 years ago.

If I'm understanding this correctly, it appears that Arobas has decided that the GP users must obtain all voices from Arobas?

I'm already pissed off at them anyway. It appears that they've disabled importation of midi files into the trial version. it's right there in the menu, but when I click on it, nothing happens.  I just got a hold of a non-crippled version -- let me tell ya, it's just as well I couldn't import a midi file into GP6. It made a complete hash out of it. God what a mess. I don't even know where to begin because I don't know the interface that well. Honestly I think it would be faster if I just entered in all the notes again from scratch. 

You know I've been reading up what GP users have to say in a few different forums and one thing appears to be growing clear -- a growing dissatisfaction in the way GP is handling user requests regarding fixes to known problems and suggestions. GP is in need of many improvements and fixes, but whenever a user asks them about when a problem will be fixed, they're told it will be taken care of in the next upgrade. But then the upgrade comes and the problem isn't fixed. And when users ask about why it isn't fixed, they're told it will be taken care of for sure in the next upgrade. Meanwhile they're having to pay for these upgrades, aren't they? And Arobas continually puts them off, essentially ignoring their requests which have become demands and their demands that have become -- well let's just say there's growing unrest, it would appear.

I don't think I want to spend money on a product right now that has such a dissatisfied user base.  Besides, after getting to play around a little on a full version now -- honestly? I don't like it. I'd rather use MidiSoft studio as buggy as it is than GP6.
Best,
Michael

montyrivers

GP6 more or less threw away a lot of what GP5 featured in favor of their crummy RSE sounds.  The sound banks are really terrible.  They play back with high latency and sometimes even fall off tempo with the rest of the song.  They also sound like garbage.  An old DX7 can generate more convincing sounds.  The reason Arobas did this is to force people to more or less "buy all the sounds" that are already available in the computer's GM soundcard set.

In GP5 I can sequence and import/export midi files with very little fuss, and without having to deal with crappy sounds.  The program just used my general midi soundcard set.  The sounds weren't amazing but they were useable and they were all there.

What users were really hoping for in GP6 was a more robust version of the same program with realtime midi recording.  Instead they redid the interface and chose to hide existing functions or break them entirely.

I guess in short, Arobas alienated their user base with the direction they took the program.


cooltouch

Well, I'm not at all aware of Arobas' history so I can't speak to the past or which is better for me personally at any rate.

I will say this, however. I spent several hours yesterday with GP6 and with some tabs for GP that I found on the net -- all public domain stuff, so no worries about copyrights.  Okay so because I'm a classical player I got interested in a few of the Bach pieces, most notably the Chaconne in Dm from his 2nd Violin Partita. The Chaconne has been transcribed for quite a few instruments, including piano. But for guitar it is one on the most difficult pieces in the repertory.  As the piece stood, it was obvious whoever the person was who had originally done the trascription for GP had done quite a bit of work to the piece, but a lot of what he did didn't work, and in many other areas he hadn't done a decent job of editing at all.  Honestly, when I have to get down to the nitty gritty and arrange a piece of music at such a close level -- more or less mimicing the way a person would actually play the piece -- I prefer doing it in MIDI with the controller page open so I can tweak nuances with it. With GP I'm having to depend on menu selections, which speeds things along for people who don't know MIDI, but it ultimately slows things down because their menu selections don't contain all the controller commands that are needed.  I kept working at things, though, until I had something passable. And then, just to refresh my ears, I listened to a Segovia recording of the Chaconne and promptly threw my hands up in disgust. I shoulda never listened to the real thing.

Regarding the soundbanks, most I've heard so far, I don't care for. But you know what?  They managed to do a much better than average job for one voice: nylon string guitar.  And lemme tell ya, nylon string guitar is one voice you can almost count on never sounding right. It's too nuanced.  So anyway, the soundbank file may sound kind of thin if you just flick a string or two, but if you take the time to listen to a good recording of it, you'll see what I mean.  It actually has a fair amount of nuance to it such that it can pass for the real deal -- if the player is somebody like John Williams, who is known both far and wide for his machine-like interpretations of classical guitar pieces. I've been using the banks' version of nylon string for the classical guitar in this piece, and I gotta say that still, it's not bad. Not bad at all.  EQ and Reverb help out a long way, though  8) .


Best,
Michael

Elantric


Baton Rouge, Louisiana—June 2015... The latest update to PreSonus® Notion® for iOS takes mobile music creation to the next level with support for iPhone®, iPod touch®, and iPad®. With this version, musicians can enjoy a seamless composition workflow between iOS devices and desktop, thanks to new iCloud support. Of course, you can still transfer files from within the app via email and Dropbox, as well.

A new Sound Manager gives you control over which sample sounds are kept on the device or in the cloud. Additional sounds, including new ukulele, woodwind, and brass samples, can be added as in-app purchases.

Native 64-bit support provides improved performance, and a completely redesigned user interface offers the latest iOS menus and dialogs.

Notion for iOS is available in English, French, German, Spanish, Japanese, and now Simplified Chinese.

Notion 5.2 for Mac and Windows is being released concurrently with Notion for iOS. Version 5.2 supports the new automatic part names and chord transposition and adds support for Simplified Chinese.


The new version adds much more; to see the entire list of new features, enhancements, and fixes, visit http://blog.presonus.com/index.php/presonus-notion-for-ios-v2-new-features.

For more information about Notion for iOS, visit www.presonus.com/products/Notion-for-iOS.


montyrivers

Time to update to ios8!!  :D

Gonna need to backup all my notion files first to be safe

Elantric

QuoteTime to update to ios8!!

If its an iPad 2 or older I would avoid updating to IOS8, it will slow older iPads down

montyrivers

I have an ipad mini 2 so 64 bit native should work well, no?

Elantric

#15
iPad Mini will slow down about  10% with IOS 8 but still be usable ( unlike an IPad 2 that would slow down 35%)

It's by design, and I'm not jumping on IOS 9 without buying a new iPad. It's reality of computers , they have a 4 year working life then new Operating Systems arrive that dictate higher performing hardware. It's typical business model

Makes one want to embrace Linux
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2451520/opensource-subnet/ubuntu-touch-may-be-our-last-hope-for-a-linux-tablet.html

montyrivers

So I updated.  My mini 2 seems to be alright.  I noticed that there is some input lag when browsing in safari, but the tradeoff is that I can now use all of the apps that make use of the ios 8 64 bit architecture.  Notion and Nave in particular are a night and day difference, they run better than ever.  Overall performance is fast and stable.  A lot of music apps that were crashing often using their 32 bit counterparts has stopped, or at least greatly improved in terms of stability.  Will let you know more later.  Mind you, this is the second gen mini I'm using, not the original with iPad 2 guts.