GR-55 Integration

Started by 3dognate, January 28, 2011, 11:59:57 AM

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Macciza

@sonnyv
You would be better off buying a fullrange cabinet then doing what you plan IMHO . . .
Depend on what music you play your 15 could be better as a 'sub' , say <100hz and then a fullrange box running as well.
Xover freq are related to a lot of factors -box size/type, speaker resonance etc, with varying tradeoffs - phase, imaging etc . . .
If you still wish to pursue this path, research xover design/topology and speaker parameter/box construction
Also the Celestion speaker will have a particular voice to it if it is a 'guitar' speaker, it wont be at all flat . . .
This would kind of suggest avoiding speaker emulations in your signal path as your speaker will then colour a coloured sound . .

I would suggest some good true-sounding monitors for your recording setup / home live playing and let the gear do its magic . . .
'70s Strat, Brian Moore iM, VG-8, VG-99, FC-300, VL-70m, StringPort, SoftStep, Sentient6, iMac QC i7 27".

sonnyv

yes, i see what you're saying Macciza.

i tried a few monitors in the past but they were always missing something.
but the something missing may have been quality. i've never tried a high end monitor.

Jim Williams

In my opinion I have noticed a minimal difference with tubes. I used to use GT-8 (same amp sims as VG-99) through a stereo tube power amp with a Marshall 1960 A 4X12 cab (stereo switch on the back). I then herd you could just plug into the PA board. It was a little thinner sounding but I got sick of hauling that amp around. I got a fair price when I sold the power amp and the cab but I still regret selling the gear. It helped me afford my VG-99 and I have been using it through the board since then. I kept my 2 Tech 21 power 60's just to have an amp for small gigs with my small powered PA head and jamming. Tech 21 also has a power 60 with a 12 and a horn, if you got 2 of them you would get a very respectable sound. the horn is only necessary for synth sounds though.  That is why I prefer playing into the board.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

musicman65

Check the response curve on a guitar speaker and you'll see that most have a huge spike in sensitivity (loudness) around 2-3k and roll off hard around 4k. Guitar amp circuits are voiced to create tons of hi-mids and highs to "make" that low-fi speaker produce crisp highs where it shouldn't and won't normally do it with a non-compensated signal.

In a full-range pa, the horns carry those frequencies instead and without them, your sound would be pure mud! The output of a modeling device is flat and doesnt have a treble boost to make up for the lack of a tweeter/horn. Best results are generally obtained from amplification that can faithfully reproduce the signal without coloring it. A guitar amp and cabinet is the farthest from this goal.

I would imagine anyone moving from a guitar amp to PA direct would get a thin tone since all their tones where based on the guitar amps lack of treble response and ample lows and mids. Adjusting your global eq and tweaking your cosm amps can give you back that rich fat sound from the pa.

musicman65




gumtown

#29
And that is why the GR-55 has "Output Select" options, if you are going to a P.A., powered monitor, or flat response keyboard amp, then the Line/Phones is the best option (in most cases).

The other options are suited to either ..
front input of a guitar amp where the preamp will 'shape' the tone,
effects return of a guitar amp, where the external preamp is bypassed (amp sim only required in GR-55) and the speaker response still applies,
combo options are for open backed cabinets,
stack return options are for closed/sealed/ported cabinets.

I would have liked the 'guitar out' options to be a little more flexable, and have a post-MFX setting, where the analog and/or modelling signal could be sent to a seperate guitar amp with effects only (no amp sim) already applied, while the synth and guitar is passed to the P.A. via amp/cab modelling.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

ddlooping

Quote from: gumtown on January 31, 2011, 11:36:14 AM
... effects return of a guitar amp, where the preamp is bypassed (amp sim only required in GR-55)
Not sure what you meant there, gumtown.
I still use the preamp sims when using a guitar amp effects return.
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

gumtown

Quote from: ddlooping on January 31, 2011, 12:00:43 PM
Not sure what you meant there, gumtown.
I still use the preamp sims when using a guitar amp effects return.
I fixed my post, i meant if you use a guitar amp/cabinet, and plug the GR-55 into the amplifier effects return (using just the amplifier only/ bypasing the external preamp), you will still need to use the GR-55 preamp sim, but will require the cabinet sim part to be switched 'off' since the external guitar cabinet will 'shape' the tone.

probably to describe my thoughts more simplisticly...
if you use a full range speaker or P.A <> GR-55 speaker cabinet sim needs to be "on".
if you don't use an external guitar preamp in your signal chain <> GR-55 amp sim needs to be "on".
The correct "Output Select" option needs to correspond to the connected equipment too..

but then rules can be broken, and the end of the day, what 'sounds best' is best... ;-)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

ddlooping

Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

3dognate

All you guys that are and have been doing the VG-guitar thing for a while now... how are you handling pickup (virtual) switching? Say Im playing "Sweet Child 'O Mine"  and need to go between neck and bridge pickup tones. I've no idea how I'm going to handle that sort of thing live... Though I suspect I'll use my passive pickups.... but If I can do the Half Step flat tuning via V-Guitar  I'd consider doing it that way... just not sure how to manage it.
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

sonnyv

#34
thanks for the valuable info on guitar speakers and horns, musicman65

Elantric

#35
This thread may be a helpful read:

http://www.futureguitarnow.com/vguitar/smf/index.php?topic=1198.0

it has frequency plots for an array of typical guitar speakers (as measured from another DSP Modeller, the Line6 Vetta) , and shows the frequency bandwidth of several guitar speaker cab types - note none have much energy above 8kHz
http://www.futureguitarnow.com/vguitar/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1198.0;attach=1353

and

Celestion Graphs are here:
http://professional.celestion.com/guitar/products/heritage/detail.asp?ID=7

sonnyv

interesting. looking at the charts, i researched further.

i had assumed that since the highest note on a guitar is under 1k that certainly a frequency range of 2k would have it covered for the COSM modeling. but apparently, "the harmonic frequency range extends almost ten times higher in frequency than the pitch of the instrument's highest note".

ksandvik

#37
Quote from: sonnyv on January 31, 2011, 01:12:03 PM
interesting. looking at the charts, i researched further.

i had assumed that since the highest note on a guitar is under 1k that certainly a frequency range of 2k would have it covered for the COSM modeling. but apparently, "the harmonic frequency range extends almost ten times higher in frequency than the pitch of the instrument's highest note".

TheGearPage Digital and Modeling Gear forum has tons of postings about finding a good amp solution for guitar modeling: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/forumdisplay.php?f=53

To summarize: You need far more headroom than a tube amp, about 500W min. Guitar amps are generally not good for virtual amp playback. EQ is important.

PS: Personally I would go in a live situation with straight to PA and in-line monitoring myself.

ddlooping

#38
Quote from: 3dognate on January 31, 2011, 12:46:06 PM
...how are you handling pickup (virtual) switching?

The Down/S1 - Up/S2 buttons on the GK-3 can be assigned to do just that.
That's how I personally do it. :)
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

Vic1iful

Speaking of Sweet Child of mine, I was messing around with it the other day and noticed on the video it the lead part came out to Eb but makes more sense in E. Is there any detuning in that song? TIA

3dognate

Quote from: Vic1iful on January 31, 2011, 04:23:56 PM
Speaking of Sweet Child of mine, I was messing around with it the other day and noticed on the video it the lead part came out to Eb but makes more sense in E. Is there any detuning in that song? TIA

It's recorded in Eb tuning (Half Step down.)

Play it in that tuning and it all works nicely.
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

Jim Williams

Quote...how are you handling pickup (virtual) switching?
I have always subscribed to assigning guitar type controls to the S1, S2 and the GK volume. But recently I have considered different options for those controllers. the first thing to consider is how often do you need to switch pickups in a performance? You can assign several different things to each controller. Lets say you are doing a tune that you play on the bridge pickup and fore the solo you want to switch to the neck pickup, activate the solo switch and turn on your overdrive. you can assign all this to one controller, lets say your S1 switch. You don't have to be stationed at your pedal board, this might even be handy for you guys that don't have a FC-300 or other midi controller. You can assign any parameter to any controller you want and quite a few different parameters to each controller. So when you switch over to the GR-55 you will not have as many physical controllers as the FC-300 and your GK controllers might come in handy. this will give you 6 psychical controllers at a time I think I can live with that. If you get a stereo Volume pedal you can even have a little more expression but that would be limited to volume only.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Vic1iful

Quote from: 3dognate on February 01, 2011, 07:36:47 AM
It's recorded in Eb tuning (Half Step down.)

Play it in that tuning and it all works nicely.

Thankyou ;)

pjmuck

Hey guys, I'm late to the party, though I've been having extensive GR-55 discussions on some other chat forums.

I'm in a classic rock cover band/wedding band, and here's my current setup:

Godin LGX-SA guitar
GR-33 (racked)
Boss GT Pro (racked)
Digitech VoiceLive Pro (racked)
Atomic Reactor 50-112
Harmonic Converger
Ground Control Pro
Occasionally I'll also use my Variax 500 too

I am completely digital at this point, even utilizing the amp/cabinet sims on my GT Pro out to the Atomic Reactor. I currently run all 3 outs from my Godin LGX-SA (one 13 pin, two 1/4"), which gives me complete independent control over each of my 3 voices. The 13 pin midi cable runs into the GR-33, which is then run in stereo out to our PA, while one 1/4" runs into the Boss GT-Pro/Atomic cabinet for my electric sounds and the other runs my piezo acoustic sounds out to the PA. All are linked for Program changes via midi from my Ground Control, which also serves to send various cc commands to all of my equipment. While I understand the GR-55 will have limited COSM sounds/effects comparatively to my Boss GT Pro and Variax, It looks like it could cover the majority of sounds I'll need AND, most importantly, replace the GR-33, GT Pro, Ground Control, Harmonic Converger, and Variax. My plan is to buy one soon and A/B it against my current setup to see if it can cover it all.
Live gear:

Boss GM-800
Boss GKC-AD
Boss Katana Artist 100
Fender Mustang GTX100
Roland GR-33
Liquid Foot Jr. midi foot controller
Boss EV-5
Godin LGX-SA guitar (lefty)
Line 6 Variax 500 guitar (lefty)
Carvin LB50 w GK3B

ddlooping

Welcome to the forums, pjmuck. :)

Quote from: pjmuck on February 02, 2011, 03:44:04 PM
While I understand the GR-55 will have limited COSM sounds/effects comparatively to my Boss GT Pro and Variax, It looks like it could cover the majority of sounds I'll need AND, most importantly, replace the GR-33, GT Pro, Ground Control, Harmonic Converger, and Variax.

Let's hope it'll do just that.
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

LouieAtienza

I like the way it sounds just straight into my Peavey 1x12 solid state combo so that's it for the most part.

kenact

I do mostly oldies R&R covers, sometimes with a band and sometimes solo.  Current setup:

Godin LGXT
GR-33
Mutron Phasor (1970's)
Morley Wah (1970's)
MXR Distortion (1970's)
Home made Synth/Guitar/Both switch
Behringer ACX900

The stereo synth out goes to the stereo line-in on the Behringer and the guitar out goes to the instrument channel.

I hoping to drop the Mutron, Morley and MXR stomp boxes.
Godin Session & Montreal FTP, LGXT, LGX SA, Redline, ACS, A12, A11, A10, A4
Danoblaster Baritone w/GK-3
Gretsch Nashville, Viking
Fender Strats
Fret King Supermatic
Larrivee DV03RE
Parker Midi Fly
Seagull, S&P 12
VOX Phantom XII
GR-55, 33, 30, 20, GI-20, RC-50, US-20, VG-99, VP-7
Sentient 6
Cyr 7

pjmuck

Quote from: gtrjimmy413 on February 02, 2011, 02:55:52 AM
I have always subscribed to assigning guitar type controls to the S1, S2 and the GK volume. But recently I have considered different options for those controllers. the first thing to consider is how often do you need to switch pickups in a performance? You can assign several different things to each controller. Lets say you are doing a tune that you play on the bridge pickup and fore the solo you want to switch to the neck pickup, activate the solo switch and turn on your overdrive. you can assign all this to one controller, lets say your S1 switch. You don't have to be stationed at your pedal board, this might even be handy for you guys that don't have a FC-300 or other midi controller. You can assign any parameter to any controller you want and quite a few different parameters to each controller. So when you switch over to the GR-55 you will not have as many physical controllers as the FC-300 and your GK controllers might come in handy. this will give you 6 psychical controllers at a time I think I can live with that. If you get a stereo Volume pedal you can even have a little more expression but that would be limited to volume only.

As I'm delving deeper into the unit now, I'm looking into creative ways to assign functions to these as well, because I'm missing the ability to independently control my COSM guitar sounds volume from the synth patch volume. In the past, I'd run 3 cables out of my Godin (1/4" electric, 1/4" piezo, and 13 pin), which gave me 3 separate volume knob controls. I'm trying to cut this all back to just the 13 pin cable, using the guitar out jack of the GR-55 to split the COSM/magnetic guitar sounds to my amp, but with the guitar out settings at "Both", the best I can achieve is COSM guitars on all the time and my real guitar can be blended in/out via volume knob. I'd really like to hear some simple creative suggestions for getting me 3 independent on on board guitar volume controls without having to assign one to the control/expression pedals. I would go back to at least 2 cables from my guitar (1/4" from electric jack and 13 pin, which can carry both piezo and synth PCMs to my PA), but since the GR-55 has no guitar input jack I wouldn't gain anything there.
Live gear:

Boss GM-800
Boss GKC-AD
Boss Katana Artist 100
Fender Mustang GTX100
Roland GR-33
Liquid Foot Jr. midi foot controller
Boss EV-5
Godin LGX-SA guitar (lefty)
Line 6 Variax 500 guitar (lefty)
Carvin LB50 w GK3B

TygermanGB

Greetings,
I've been lurking here for a while and its time to get to some posting. I do a live looping solo act doing covers and originals.

I use a VG-99 connected to a US-20 and a second us-20 switch connecting my VG-8 and my GR-33. I do not use my "real" guitar leads or the GK pickup switches at all. The outputs go into my MAudio USB and bring the sound and MIDI into my Touchsmart notebook. I use an FCB1010 and the FC300 for foot control.
On the notebook I have Bidule running Mobius for looping and Jamstix for drums. I've got NI softsynths (using the MIDI off the VG-99) With all this I just switch patches instead of editing the patches with live switching. Mobius controls the MIDI clock so as my first record cycle sets the song tempo for Jamstix and any tempo sync effects.

I'll drop the GR-33 and put the GR-55 in its place for sure. It might replace the VG-8 as well. What has got me most interested in the GR-55 is running it off battery power on its own or with the notebook/fcb1010. With the limited looping on board the GR-55 I can do some of my stuff. With short loops I should be able to play the drum parts. The new drum sets should be a big addition to my rig. I use Battery for this now but the internal tracking on the GR-55 should be better.

-Ty
Parker Guitars - VG-99, VG-8ex, GR-55, GP-10, US-20 and Bidule/Mobious/Jamstix NI for soft synths

ddlooping

Crazy set-up you've got there, TygermanGB.  :o
Must have taken you some time to get the hang of it.  :)
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)