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Roland VG-99 V-Guitar System => VG-99 Top things to know => Topic started by: steadystate on June 13, 2011, 09:04:02 AM

Title: VG-99 - Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: steadystate on June 13, 2011, 09:04:02 AM
I just bought a VG-99 and am in the process of comparing/contrasting the unit to my VG-88.  So far, the only major downgrade is the nylon string model.  The nylon string model's "hysteresis" problem I read about is major.  I don't even know if it is usable because of this.

I am blown away that Roland could let this problem go uncorrected for this long.  I may not keep the 99 because of this.

Edit: After reading it again after a few hours, my post comes across a bit too rant like.  The 99 is a great unit, with many advantages over the 88.  I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks this problem is as bad as I think it is.  I knew the problem existed before I purchased, but man, I didn't think it would be this bad.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: pasha811 on June 14, 2011, 04:51:29 AM
Quote from: steadystate on June 13, 2011, 09:04:02 AM
I just bought a VG-99 and am in the process of comparing/contrasting the unit to my VG-88.  So far, the only major downgrade is the nylon string model.  The nylon string model's "hysteresis" problem I read about is major.  I don't even know if it is usable because of this.

I am blown away that Roland could let this problem go uncorrected for this long.  I may not keep the 99 because of this.

Edit: After reading it again after a few hours, my post comes across a bit too rant like.  The 99 is a great unit, with many advantages over the 88.  I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks this problem is as bad as I think it is.  I knew the problem existed before I purchased, but man, I didn't think it would be this bad.

I do not think is as bad as it goes, albeit subjective.
For me sounds good enough, however I do not have a VG88 to compare with.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: aliensporebomb on June 14, 2011, 06:00:05 AM
Try it and let me know what you think.  I know that some of the issues people were making requests for in the thread on "requests for version 2 of the software" were either already in the VG-99 and they didn't know it or was something that was totally unrealistic or odd.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: steadystate on June 20, 2011, 11:22:23 AM
Quote from: pasha811 on June 14, 2011, 04:51:29 AM
I do not think is as bad as it goes, albeit subjective.
For me sounds good enough, however I do not have a VG88 to compare with.
Compared directly, the 88's nylon blows the 99's out of the water, even though they "sound" the same.  You can pluck the 88 as softly as you like at any time and always have sound.  The top strings of the 99 just disappear completely until you pluck them rather forcefully.  The dynamic response of the 88 is far superior.  This is a bug that needs to be fixed.  Knowing Roland, this will never happen. >:(  Try before you buy.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: cynegetic on June 20, 2011, 06:14:33 PM
Anyone have an audio sample of this effect?

I can't say that I have ever encountered it.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: Brent Flash on June 20, 2011, 06:18:31 PM
Quote from: cynegetic on June 20, 2011, 06:14:33 PM
Anyone have an audio sample of this effect?

I can't say that I have ever encountered it.
It is a little hard to record a string that does not play or at least you may not know that the person playing is trying to play the string and no sound is coming out. Very strange issue and only shows up when you try to play the high strings soft.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: aliensporebomb on June 22, 2011, 02:06:50 PM
I dunno - take a peek at this:

http://www.reverbnation.com/artist/artist_songs/649316 (http://www.reverbnation.com/artist/artist_songs/649316)

This is an piece of music from my recent solo CD that uses a classical guitar model with one string acting as bass.  I'm playing pretty quietly in spots.

I'll have to see what I can do to duplicate this bug - Brent - do you know a specific patch that shows this problem off (like specific model and settings)?

Is it just legato pull offs on the E B and G strings?

Does this show on the factory set of patches since I replaced the first 200 with ones of my own or from here?
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: Brent Flash on June 22, 2011, 02:31:25 PM
Quote from: aliensporebomb on June 22, 2011, 02:06:50 PM

I'll have to see what I can do to duplicate this bug - Brent - do you know a specific patch that shows this problem off (like specific model and settings)?

Does this show on the factory set of patches since I replaced the first 200 with ones of my own or from here?
Any Nylon model will do it as long as it is just the Nylon not mixed with another model. Just continue to play the high strings real soft (or light may be a better way to say it) and you will see what this is all about.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 08, 2011, 04:34:02 PM
I definetely noticed it on a gig last saturday night when I did a classical guitar solo, one of the factory patches believe it or not.

Maybe it's because the word "hysteresis" doesn't translate well to Japanese?  I wonder how else this could be described?

This is something I definetely want fixed.  The different between the high B and the high E is that the high E requires twice the
finger pressure to enunciate a note.  Not as effortless and it seems to be consistent even if string sensitivity settings are changed.

I can see myself using high notes on the high B more than I normally would as a result.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: Jim Williams on July 08, 2011, 10:56:47 PM
I never had this happen to me, maybee if you played with your GK senitivities a little it might help.
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: Elantric on July 08, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
The VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar "bug" does exist, There is a threshold (more like a brick wall) that exists while fingerpicking softly on the upper strings where the natural expected smooth linear lowered output volume is not experienced, instead you will have what appears to be drop outs, no sound,  "dead unresponsive strings"  - its very much like falling off a cliff, or suspect you have an intermittent failure of your hex PU. Only a heavy  picking attack will resurrect the temporarily "dead" Nylon COSM model's upper strings.

Its worth exploring the relationship of the GK PU Noise Suppressor settings  during the VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar "bug".

It might be "fixed" if you turn OFF the VG-99 GK PU Noise Suppressor (See VG-99 Owners manual Page 105)


"NS (Noise Suppressor)
This effect reduces the noise and hum picked up by guitar pickups.
Since it suppresses the noise in synchronization with the envelope of
the guitar sound (the way in which the guitar sound decays over
time), it has very little effect on the guitar sound, and does not harm
the natural character of the sound.
"
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: notnomiistakes on July 09, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
Quote from: aliensporebomb on June 22, 2011, 02:06:50 PM
I dunno - take a peek at this:

http://www.reverbnation.com/artist/artist_songs/649316 (http://www.reverbnation.com/artist/artist_songs/649316)

Just a little curious which track on Reverbnation for the Nylon?....thanks
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: steadystate on July 10, 2011, 10:38:42 AM
Quote from: Elantric on July 08, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
The VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar "bug" does exist, There is a threshold (more like a brick wall) that exists while fingerpicking softly on the upper strings where the natural expected smooth linear lowered output volume is not experienced, instead you will have what appears to be drop outs, no sound,  "dead unresponsive strings"  - its very much like falling off a cliff, or suspect you have an intermittent failure of your hex PU. Only a heavy  picking attack will resurrect the temporarily "dead" Nylon COSM model's upper strings.

Its worth exploring the relationship of the GK PU Noise Suppressor settings  during the VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar "bug".

It might be "fixed" if you turn OFF the VG-99 GK PU Noise Suppressor (See VG-99 Owners manual Page 105)


"NS (Noise Suppressor)
This effect reduces the noise and hum picked up by guitar pickups.
Since it suppresses the noise in synchronization with the envelope of
the guitar sound (the way in which the guitar sound decays over
time), it has very little effect on the guitar sound, and does not harm
the natural character of the sound.
"


The Nylon model does not have Noise Suppression.  That was one of the first things I thought of trying, but it isn't there.  I obviously have all regular and COSM FX turned off as a starting point.  I started from scratch.

FWIW, I have tried the following:

I adjusted the string sensitivities.  No effect.

I tried the COSM per-string compressor/limiter.  No effect.  It just sounds like a compressed version of the problem.

I tried using the dynamic switch to switch (when picking gently) to a steel string adjusted to sound more like the nylon.  They don't sound similar enough and the transition is obvious no matter how I adjust them.

I mixed in just enough normal neck pickup to keep the "dead spots" from being horribly noticeably.  So far, this is the best compromise I have found.  Not an acceptable solution.

I also find that the problem isn't just that the top strings "drop out" under certain conditions.  Their dynamic response, from the softest touch to the hardest strum, is not consistent.  It changes over time, and each string changes differently.  I've also noticed that if I play long enough, I can sometimes reach a point when the response feels "correct".  If I then hit the Write button to save the preset, the tone reverts to the screwed up response again.

This is a bug, and a big one.  Someone at Roland screwed  up, but the company "is not aware of the problem"?  How could the designers and QA people have missed this?  IMO, the Nylon model is close to useless.  I'm going to be using the steel string model instead.  The timbre won't be right, but at least it is consistent and doesn't make me sound like a fumble-fingered hack.

Will it ever be fixed?  Based on Roland's track record, I'm not holding my breath.  They are too large of a company to care.  Fractal Audio would have had this fixed within a week of its first mention.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: Elantric on July 10, 2011, 11:09:19 AM
QuoteWill it ever be fixed?  Based on Roland's track record, I'm not holding my breath.  They are too large of a company to care.  Fractal Audio would have had this fixed within a week of its first mention.

I agree!

At Every NAMM show for the past three years, myself and Vance G always meet with the manager of Roland US guitar division, who denies the problem exists - which seems to be the corporate line.


I suspect they have too many metal heads in R&D roles, who never use the Nylon patch.

Hey, why not have a "write in "campaign to get Roland Corp's  attention. - or simply make a Youtube Video and call it "VG-99 Nylon Bug"
and email a link to every Roland Customer support contact we can find, so at least they will finally acknowledge this bug exists.

As things now stand, Roland will just tell you there is nothing wrong with the VG-99 Nylon COSM Model. 
Title: Re: Nylon String Hysteresis
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 10, 2011, 11:24:47 AM
Quote from: notnomiistakes on July 09, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
Just a little curious which track on Reverbnation for the Nylon?....thanks

Sorry!  D'oh!  This one:  http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_3616974 (http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_3616974)

But I really noticed using one of the factory patches, the Sevilla Nylon patch it shows up particularly.  I'll play around with settings and see if noise suppression makes a difference.  From what steadystate says it doesn't change the problem.

And great idea Elantric about the video regarding the bug - I'll do one.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: Elantric on July 10, 2011, 11:33:13 AM
QuoteAnd great idea Elantric about the video regarding the bug - I'll do one.

Please do, and post a link here and I will forward it to every Roland contact I have.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 10, 2011, 08:53:27 PM
Grrrr. I'd be filming it now but we have a pretty major thunderstorm going on right now.  I'll be back.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: steadystate on July 11, 2011, 10:25:18 AM
Thanks aliensporebomb.  A well-made video should at least demonstrate the bug to the non-believers and corporate deniers.  An audio-only demo with the normal pickup on one channel and COSM Nylon on the other should be convincing as well.  I'll make an audio demo like this when I have time.  I'm bewildered that some users have posted that they don't notice this.  How could anyone NOT notice this?  Could there be two versions of the unit?  IMO, if you haven't noticed this, either there are two versions of the unit, or you have never tried real-world dynamic fingerpicking using the nylon mode.  It's obvious....immediately.  The bug also seems to be triggered when you play the lower three (heavy) strings with force and then softly pick the top three.

Since I expect Roland to ignore the issue, the best workaround I've developed so far is to use the Nylon model for COSM Guitar A, and use the L4 F-hole model neck pickup for COSM Guitar B (none of the other acoustic sims sound as close, way too bright and way too much attack), with only the top three strings mixed in on B.  I adjust the eq to match the Nylon as closely as possible.  I then apply compression to B, so that the level of B when I play softly is equal to the lower three strings of the Nylon, but the volume of B does not increase as I play harder and the top strings of the Nylon kick in.  When the top strings of the Nylon kick in, they pretty much overwhelm the L4.  I tried using dynamic switching to ditch B altogether when picking hard, but it makes the transition far more obvious and produces clicks.  This is an unacceptable BS workaround, but it's the best I can do for now.

Obviously, I can hear the difference in the top strings when playing softly (L4) then aggressively (nylon), but it sounds better than no soft notes at all or blending the normal neck pickup, since this affects the timbre of the bottom strings as well.  Roland's denial is really pi$$ing me off on this one.  What are they afraid of?  Why can't they just man up, admit the bug, and tell us tough luck, too bad, so sad.  I'd rather have an honest admission of an f-up that won't be fixed than lies.  There is NO WAY they aren't aware of this, especially after being told about it multiple times.  We users KNOW there is a bug already.  Do they think that by denying it, we will all say "Oh, I guess we were wrong"?  All Roland is doing is making me believe that they not only don't care about the customer, but that they don't care to the point of lies.  Horrible.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: Elantric on July 11, 2011, 10:30:38 AM
QuoteHow could anyone NOT notice this?


If you have your string sensitivity at 65 or higher, you will typically not experience the VG-99 Nylon COSM bug. A higher String Sensitivity setting does make many of the "metal" hi gain patches come alive, but leaves you with very little dynamic picking touch sensitivity. 

A higher String Sensitivity setting + light picking will still leave your string signal at a level that never falls in the lower voltage ranges where the Nylon COSM model drop-outs occur.

Like I said, I talk to many folks at Roland US, and nobody there acknowledges this VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar Model bug even exists.   
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 11, 2011, 08:00:28 PM
Filming day 1:

Yeesh.  The biggest problem is my halting, stumbling narration and then the fact that the camera is picking up the sound of the VG coming thru my studio monitors so it's kind of tinny and doesn't
really illustrate the problem.  I could record it direct into my DAW and then try to line it up against the video but that would be difficult too.  The other problem is I'd start the camera and start
narrating not realizing the camera wasn't quite going yet. 

Anyone want to see the "rev1" version?  I'll make it a private video on my youtube site once I get it put up there.

Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: notnomiistakes on July 12, 2011, 12:38:58 AM
Quote from: aliensporebomb on July 11, 2011, 08:00:28 PM
Anyone want to see the "rev1" version?  I'll make it a private video on my youtube site once I get it put up there.
Yes for YouTube showing! I had to very quickly find a Nylon last Friday & used the Seville factory nylon with with just a few minutes to move it and tweak it.  I noticed the hi E and B strings were weak whether fretted or open.  I haven't used a nylon for a while.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 12, 2011, 02:03:22 PM
I uploaded it to youtube late last night the darned thing is STILL processing.  I think something is broken but don't want to spent 5 hours re-uploading it.  Ideas? 
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: cynegetic on July 12, 2011, 03:42:56 PM
 ;D Just set up a live webcam and stand by to act it out when requested.  ;D
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 12, 2011, 05:28:35 PM
I am going to try and upload again.  I've never had a youtube video process this long - a longer one was instantly available.  One bit.

Update:  233 minutes remaining.  This could take a while.  Grumble.

209...

193...

183...

166...

84...

73...  I'm hitting the hay and the original one I uploaded yesterday evening is STILL processing.  !@$#(*&!#$
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 12, 2011, 06:27:28 PM
Quote from: cynegetic on July 12, 2011, 03:42:56 PM
;D Just set up a live webcam and stand by to act it out when requested.  ;D

I think my hand would fall off!  Those legato runs make my wrist hurt after a while.
Title: Re: Nylon String "dtop out" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 13, 2011, 07:46:12 AM
All:  the video finally uploaded - the original one I uploaded is STILL processing!  I deleted that one.

This is a private video for the time being, if you all think it's okay I can make it public:
Roland VG-99 and Nylon Guitar - Legato Phrasing Problems (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ebschetBeE#ws)

Let me know what you think I should re-do for the final version.  The real issue for me is that when I start the camera it takes a few moments for it to "ramp up" so it cut off some of the initial words I spoke.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: Brent Flash on July 13, 2011, 08:44:42 AM
Quote from: aliensporebomb on July 13, 2011, 07:46:12 AM
Let me know what you think I should re-do for the final version.  The real issue for me is that when I start the camera it takes a few moments for it to "ramp up" so it cut off some of the initial words I spoke.
Good video but....I am not sure you truly understand what the bug does. This is my opinion and please don't take this personal. A better way to demonstrate what happens with the NYLON model is to finger pick a D chord or even the high strings open, very lightly, while showing your fingers picking. At a point the strings will stop sounding as if the volume was turned off. To get them to sound again you will have to pick harder and then they will start sounding again.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: Elantric on July 13, 2011, 09:15:16 AM
QuoteGood video but....I am not sure you truly understand what the bug does. This is my opinion and please don't take this personal. A better way to demonstrate what happens with the NYLON model is to finger pick a D chord or even the high stings open, very lightly, while showing your fingers picking. At a point the strings will stop sounding as if the volume was turned off. To get them to sound again you will have to pick harder and then they will start sounding again.

+1
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 13, 2011, 09:31:41 AM
Oh then I did experience it once - you'll notice I do an ascending legato run up the high e string and NOTHING happens.  Let me re-do then.  Video taken down for rev2.

I just notice that you really need to use a lot of force to enunciate the notes, if you use light touches like I do with the more crazy legato video with the ES335 model towards the end it will simply not sound if I did it on the nylon model.

Good ideas - stay tuned for rev2.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: Brent Flash on July 13, 2011, 09:51:22 AM
Yes, you can set the COSM MODEL to STEEL and pick the B string very lightly and it will sound with the lightest of touch with a pick or your finger even be able to hear the pick (or finger) scrap the string. Then try the same thing switching the COSM MODEL to NYLON. The string will stop sounding except for the faintest of sound like a distant reverb then as you hit the threshold (whatever that is) the string will suddenly sound again and continue to sound until it decides to quit again. It is kinda unpredictable and sometimes makes you think you just missed the string. Very annoying if you are trying to play something very soft and expressive.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: steadystate on July 13, 2011, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Brent Flash on July 13, 2011, 09:51:22 AM
The string will stop sounding except for the faintest of sound like a distant reverb
In my case, this is the sympathetic vibrations of the three bottom strings (which aren't affected by the bug).

Amazing isn't it?  When you pick the top strings, the sympathetic vibrations induced in the three bottom strings are quite audible, while the directly-picked top strings are simultaneously inaudible.  And yet Roland claims nothing is wrong here.  I find this insulting.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 14, 2011, 11:52:59 AM
Update to my original update - see new message.

Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: alexmcginness on November 23, 2011, 06:08:49 PM
This is a bug I reported when the unit first came out. Only a few others noticed it....most did not. I tune my guitar to Eb which may add to the problem. The nylon in the 99 is just a toy. I use my ol 88 to record any nylon stuff I need.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on November 23, 2011, 08:35:12 PM
The levels issue and guitar to midi issues I had previously are resolved. 

I'm not sure I can adequately display the nylon hysteresis bug via video.  I can see someone at Roland tech support saying "stop playing so lightly then!".  Well, some of the lightness of touch is idiomatic to the classical guitar style.

My experiment tonight was with Brent's "Flash Nylon" patch.

But it seems that a good capability that has a problem isn't being addressed.  Or they think it's "good enough".  Realistically with all of the advertising for new products Roland might think "what benefit would we achieve by fixing a problem that affects a minority of users?"


Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: alexmcginness on November 24, 2011, 07:53:18 AM
do you tune to Eb?
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: aliensporebomb on November 24, 2011, 11:47:28 AM
I personally do not - I usually tune to standard and do any detuning in the box.  It just makes for a more simplified setup.  The only reason I would detune is for a specific mechanical reason and I haven't really done that with this box.

Maybe I should try it and see if it gets worse?  That might explain things if the instrument is playing outside of the frequency range where the VG is expecting it to be.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: Elantric on November 24, 2011, 12:29:49 PM
On my VG-99, all I have to do to duplicate the Nylon patch note drop out bug problem is play a guitar with GK-3 with string sensitivity at 20-30 range, then fingerpick ( flesh on strings - no nails or finger picks) old Beatles Dear Prudence tune.

The G string typically drops out randomly, and once it's dead, I must pick the string very hard to make it clear it's throat and make sound again.

It's like there's an internal poorly adjusted polyphonic noise gate, one per string, that becomes enabled during the Nylon patch and not all strings are set correctly. I call it a bug, and after telling Roland about it for 5 years, they claim they can not reproduce the problem, therefore the gatekeepers never informed the actual DSP code writers in Japan that any problem exists.

But I found you can overcome it by raising your Gk String Sensitivity to "65" or above.
Title: Re: Nylon String "Hysteresis" BUG
Post by: alexmcginness on November 25, 2011, 08:11:00 AM
you got it. Same exact issue here as well. One of the nay sayers who could not reproduce this flaw is Bill Rupert!