Internal GK-KIT-GT3 kit install?

Started by Kurtatwork, January 14, 2013, 10:50:00 AM

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Kurtatwork

I'm in the Seattle area (Edmonds, to be precise) and have been having a tough time finding anyone willing to consider installing the Roland GT3 Kit.  Anyone have any leads on a good tech willing to install the pickup kit permanently into a Ibanez RG920?  I've sent off emails to several local shops and they don't want any part of it.

So at this point, I'm willing to ship it elsewhere to get it done.  But geeez, it's not like hardly anyone plays guitar in this area! ;o)  Someone's gotta have the skills to do this.  I've watched a really good video on how to DIY, but I don't have that skill set or enough patience!  I've got the money to pay a pro to do it right.

Mrchevy

#1
I suspect the hesitance is because its kind of an expensive guitar and because i believe the space between the bridge and the bridge pickup is narrow so you will need a special mounting bracket which normally goes over top of the humbucker pickup trim ring, of which the Ibanez doesn't have. It also requires hacking a big hole in your guitar for the 13 pin plug and numerous small holes on the front of the body for the switches and such. Its not a job for the tweaking, parts changer type guitar tech. Most just don't want the liability of ruining your guitar. That being said, it can be done. I believe Aliensporebomb, a forum member, has an Ibanez as do several others here, maybe they can give more insight as to what is involved. You could buy a really cheap used Ibanez with the same bridge/pickup dimensions and try it on that one first. It would likely cost you the same for a cheap guitar to hack on as it would for a pro install.  Then you'll know what NOT to do when your done   ;) I would say bring it buy and I might take a wack at it but I live in central Florida. Just read all you can and look for images of one installed and you could probably do it. Just keep some tissues near buy just in case.  ;D

Here's a link to a similar install with good pixs and insight, hope this helps. http://highlandsrock.blogspot.com/p/ibanez-rg870-adding-roland-pickup.html
Gibson Les Paul Custom
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GT100
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Helix LT
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And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#2
I always refer folks to use a luthier who understands Roland 13 pin interfaces, such as an RMC pickup installer to perform the Roland internal Gk kit install.

Find one here:
http://www.rmcpickup.com/authorized_installers.htm

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Kurtatwork

#3
Thanks guys for all the links and advice!  I'll be running those links down tomorrow for sure.

Before I ever got started on this adventure, I took a look at this video:


So I had pretty good idea of how slim the margin for error was here, but I figured there had to be a luthier out there up for the challenge, and being a guy who works for himself at an hourly rate, I fully understand the implications of a job where a lot of time is involved.  So I'm prepared to pay what it takes to get it done.

I've got a Fender Roland GC1 Strat (upgraded with a Super Vee bridge).  When you look at this guitar it was obviously very easy for the factory to drop the GT3 kit into the space available.  But in the video referenced above, if a guy who doesn't do this for a living can do it, a serious pro should be able to.

In that video he abandons the idea of having the PU mount ring work and just cuts the back end off of it to get the room needed.  The good thing about the RG920 is that it has no PU mount rings, just two humbuckers mounted directly into a routed cavity, so that should help in providing more room for the Roland GT3.   Obviously what scares everyone off is the maple veneer finish on the 920: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RG920MQMRDT/

I even sent off an email to Ibanez a few months ago suggesting that they match Fender's decision to offer a guitar with a GT3 already installed.  No reply.   Maybe I needed to fake an email address that sounded like it was Satch or Vai making that request.  ;o)

I think all it takes is one really seriously talented player to go this route and make some music no one's ever been able to do live with a GR-55 and it could be a game changer. So far Steve Stevens seems to be about the biggest "name" I've seen that fully embraces the technology.  I wish I had some level of talent to show what this thing could do, but I can easily imagine a lot of 2 amp dual output setups that allow people to play stuff live that could only be done in a studio before.

Imagine running both outputs, the 13 pin, and the regular PU output into separate amps and effects setups.  Then just for the hell of it, you pitch shift one signal and now you're playing harmonies that used to require two guitarists live.  So it's awesome to be able to do synth voices, but now with that GT3 PU added, the possibilities seem endless.  Sorry, I'm off on a tangent now.

fuzzfactory

as always
Elantric you
ROCK

now i know who to use when i build my dream guitar to install a GK3 kit

highlandsrock

I've installed a GT3 Kit in an Ibanez RG870. It really wasn't difficult to do. The one detail that made life easy was the size of the cavity in which the original jack socket sits as it means you don't have to rout any additional cavities or make new backplates. I laid out the switches too fit and like the neat, symmetrical group I ended up with. I don't know whether your Ibanez has a similar cavities. I recorded the whole process here - http://goo.gl/SRyfv
Ibanez RG870 with GT3 internal kit +
GR-33, VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, SY-1000, Strymon Big Sky

Elantric

#6
Excellent work!
http://highlandsrock.blogspot.co.uk/p/ibanez-rg870-adding-roland-pickup.html

I will comment that there are options for implementing the 13 pin output jack.

If you can solder, consider using a smaller "panel mount" type 13 pin DIN female jack - like this:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4765.0


 

The Jack above will require much less wood removal on your guitar!
Other options are noted here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6247.msg52161#msg52161



highlandsrock

I like the look of the single socket. Very neat and certainly a good solution if your worried about attacking your prized guitar with various sharp objects. I will admit that it took a lot of courage with the router the first time!

On my install I still wanted to be able to use a conventional jack lead rather than always having to have a multiway cable and adaptor box with me even if I just wanted to plug straight into an amp.
Ibanez RG870 with GT3 internal kit +
GR-33, VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, SY-1000, Strymon Big Sky

Elantric

QuoteOn my install I still wanted to be able to use a conventional jack lead rather than always having to have a multiway cable and adaptor box with me even if I just wanted to plug straight into an amp

I agree - I always employ a separate normal 1/4" Guitar Output jack on all guitars.

Elantric

#9
Also Forum member Gumbo will soon be selling a custom version of this type Jack which is already machined to mate with the "Locking" Roland 13 pin DIN cable  - and retain the important locking funtion

 

Enticing_Scarab

#10
Hi,

I'm building a guitar that has standard pickups and a standard 1/4" output jack, and also an internal GK-3 with a GK output too.

My question is, if I simultaneously plug the standard 1/4" jack into my amp and the GK socket to a GR-55, will the sound from my standard pickups come through the 1/4" jack and amp when in 'Guitar' mode? Similarly, in 'Guitar and GK' mode, will each pickup go through it's relevant jack? What I basically don't want is for my standard pickup signal to go through the GK socket.


Many thanks in advance for your help :)

Elantric

#11
Most of the relevant Schematics are here in this thread
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0

There is no rule that states you must connect the normal pickups to the Roland GK-KIT-GT3 electronics. If you never want your normal pickups to be sent down the 13 pin cable, Just leave the normal pickups routed to the 1/4" output jack only ,and omit all the connections for the Normal pickups.

However be sure to to connect the GK -Internal Kit "Ground" connection (Black Wires) to the Same internal Ground as the Normal pickups - and of course this includes the grounding wire for the strings (depending on the guitar type this is via an internal wire connected to the Bridge studs or Tailpiece or rear trem spring claw ) This helps tame anomalous hum and noise which could impact Guitar to MIDI or COSM Modeling or Alt tunings, or all the above. 

Refer to this diagram (PDF link below) for a Gk Internal install with no "normal Pickups" - it also omits the three way "Guitar / mix/Synth" switch. 

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73.0;attach=6660

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from:  Elantric on August 07, 2013, 06:19:03 PM
Most of the relevant Schematics are here in this thread
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0

There is no rule that states you must connect the normal pickups to the Roland GK-KIT-GT3 electronics. If you never want your normal pickups to be sent down the 13 pin cable, Just leave the normal pickups routed to the 1/4" output jack only ,and omit all the connections for the Normal pickups.

However be sure to to connect the GK -Internal Kit "Ground" connection (Black Wires) to the Same internal Ground as the Normal pickups - and of course this includes the grounding wire for the strings (depending on the guitar type this is via an internal wire connected to the Bridge studs or Tailpiece or rear trem spring claw ) This helps tame anomalous hum and noise which could impact Guitar to MIDI or COSM Modeling or Alt tunings, or all the above. 

Refer to this diagram (PDF link below) for a Gk Internal install with no "normal Pickups" - it also omits the three way "Guitar / mix/Synth" switch. 

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73.0;attach=6660

Thanks for your detailed reply :)

I should have said that a luthier is doing the actual building, so is it common practise with an internal GK build to link the main pickups solely to the 1/4" jack output? He says he's done GK builds before.

gumtown

You could add a toggle switch to route the pickups either through the 1/4" jack, through the GK, or both.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from:  gumtown on August 08, 2013, 05:19:13 AM
You could add a toggle switch to route the pickups either through the 1/4" jack, through the GK, or both.

It also has a Sustainer FSK-101 in the neck - if I route the signal of both normal pickups out through the 1/4" output, will I still be able to use my Sustainer to give infinite sustain whilst using my GK-3 in 'GK Only' mode? I'd presume yes, myself, since in Sustain mode the 101 simply vibrates the strings themselves constantly, which would surely be picked up by the GK pickup. That way you'd only hear the GK sound but still have the sustain. Unless I'm muddled somewhere?

datsunrobbie

On the two installs I have done I connected the magnetic pickups to the GK and the 1/4" output jack. Just set the switch to "synth" and the mag pickups are shut off. 1/4" jack is always live, so the setting of the guitar/mix/synth switch has no effect on the 1/4" jack. Sounds to me like you could still have your luthier install the whole kit, and just keep the switch set to "synth" - and still have the flexibility to get the mag pickups through the GK if you decide you want it in the future. Are you looking to eliminate the guitar/mix/synth switch from the installation?

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from:  datsunrobbie on August 08, 2013, 05:34:55 AM
On the two installs I have done I connected the magnetic pickups to the GK and the 1/4" output jack. Just set the switch to "synth" and the mag pickups are shut off. 1/4" jack is always live, so the setting of the guitar/mix/synth switch has no effect on the 1/4" jack. Sounds to me like you could still have your luthier install the whole kit, and just keep the switch set to "synth" - and still have the flexibility to get the mag pickups through the GK if you decide you want it in the future. Are you looking to eliminate the guitar/mix/synth switch from the installation?

I'm keeping the Guitar/Mix/Synth switch, just curious at to where the signal from the regular pickups goes when the switch is in 'Guitar' and 'Mix' modes. I've heard that it still goes through the GK output even if a regular 1/4" jack is connected to a proper amp.

What I want is to have my GK pickup through the GK output, and my regular pickups always through the standard 1/4 jack in Guitar and Mix modes (thanks for using the proper names  :)). If that is the standard operation for an internal GK kit?

Elantric

#17
Couple thoughts
You could install the GK Internal - but make a subtle but important change  - that is adding a 1/4" Switching jack for the Normal pickups output. With the standard GK-3 Install, the three way Guitar/mix/Synth switch slightly alters the sound of your normal pickups - due to impedance loading of the GK Circuit. Adding a switching 1/4" Output jack that removes the GK circuit from the Normal Guitar output anytime a 1/4" guitar cable in inserted is a good thing. This is exactly what the Fender Roland Ready and GC-1 Strats do as well. They actually use the same SwitchCraft Style Jack used on a 1967 Fender Twin Reverb Input Jack.
Switchcraft L12A 1/4" Mono 2-Conductor Jack, Tip Shunt, Long Bushing




But the big downer for me is that getting the three way "Guitar/Mix/Synth" switch to actually work is a daunting frustrating experience. Its not automatic, due to the fact that after the 2001 VG-88, Roland  13 pin processors Factory presets are all missing the important programing to make this function work.

We have several threads that talk about this - its related to the GK Volume as a Control Assignment for non Volume duties, this clobbers the Three way "Guitar/Mix/Synth " switch operation.

Roland should have addressed this years ago, but instead they felt a need to maintain a flawed "standard" that was fully compatible with the old GK-2A.
I know many here never use "Normal Pickups"  - I'm NOT in that camp, as I always view the Synth Tones are there to augment my Guitar sound- not replace it.

Show me the best COSM Modeled Guitar sound with a VG-99 / GR-55. and in 15 seconds I'll show you a few sounds it can Not duplicate that my Normal Pickups faithfully deliver. Its mostly Palm Muting styles.

   

gumbo

"But the big downer for me is that getting the three way "Guitar/Mix/Synth" switch to actually work is a daunting frustrating experience."



...GR-30s RULE!!!     ;D
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Enticing_Scarab

#19
Quote from:  Elantric on August 08, 2013, 07:00:30 AM
Couple thoughts
You could install the GK Internal - but make a subtle but important change  - that is adding a 1/4" Switching jack for the Normal pickups output. With the standard GK-3 Install, the three way Guitar/mix/Synth switch slightly alters the sound of your normal pickups - due to impedance loading of the GK Circuit. Adding a switching 1/4" Output jack that removes the GK circuit from the Normal Guitar output anytime a 1/4" guitar cable in inserted is a good thing. This is exactly what the Fender Roland Ready and GC-1 Strats do as well. They actually use the same SwitchCraft Style Jack used as a Fender Twin Reverb Input Jack.
Switchcraft L12A 1/4" Mono 2-Conductor Jack, Tip Shunt, Long Bushing




But the big downer for me is that getting the three way "Guitar/Mix/Synth" switch to actually work is a daunting frustrating experience. Its not automatic, due to the fact that after the 2001 VG-88, Roland  13 pin processors Factory presets are all missing the important programing to make this function work.

We have several threads that talk about this - its related to the GK Volume as a Control Assignment for non Volume duties, this clobbers the Three way "Guitar/Mix/Synth " switch operation.

Roland should have addressed this years ago, but instead they felt a need to maintain a flawed "standard" that was fully compatible with the old GK-2A.
I know many here never use "Normal Pickups"  - I'm NOT in that camp, as I always view the Synth Tones are there to augment my Guitar sound- not replace it.

Show me the best COSM Modeled Guitar sound with a VG-99 / GR-55. and in 15 seconds I'll show you a few sounds it can Not duplicate that my Normal Pickups faithfully deliver. Its mostly Palm Muting styles.



I'd definitely be using my regular pickups most of the time. So what you're saying in a nutshell is that it would work like I described in my last post, unless I re-map the GK Volume control to a CC controller, where it will somehow knock the G/M/S switch out?

Also, is it a massively noticeable alteration to the regular pickup sound due to the G/M/S switch impeding the signal?


Thanks for all your help so far, guys :)

Elantric

#20
YEs - its mostly noticeable in the "Mix" position  - loss of highs due to impedance loading of the GK Circuit on the Normal pickups observed on 1/4" output.

My frankenstrat with GK INTERNAL, Sustainiac Stealth Plus, and piezo bridge for non GK acoustic tones - all done in 1998.


This thread is important to read too

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5809.0

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from:  Elantric on August 08, 2013, 08:15:05 AM
YEs - its mostly noticeable in the "Mix" position  - loss of highs due to impedance loading of the GK Circuit on the Normal pickups.

My frankenstrat with GK INTERNAL, Sustainiac Stealth Plus, and piezo bridge for non GK acoustic tones


This thread is important to read too

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5809.0

Thanks for that, I'll have a read :) Does your Sustainiac work in sustain and harmonic modes with the GK pickup in Mix and Synth modes by the way?

Elantric

#22
QuoteDoes your Sustainiac work in sustain and harmonic modes with the GK pickup in Mix and Synth modes by the way?
YES - With varying effect dependent on the VG-99 / GR-55 patch

People ask - yes its Robin Trower signed my guitar.

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from:  Elantric on August 08, 2013, 08:30:36 AM
YES - With varying effect dependent on the VG-99 / GR-55 patch

People ask - yes its Robin Trower signed my guitar.

Thanks :) I've asked the luthier to move the GK CB as far away as possible from the Sustainer CB, and if he can wire the guitar so that the regular pickups go through the 1/4" jack and not through the GK output. That way, the GK controls can't impede the regular pickup signal, surely, but I can still use the G/M/S switch.

Elantric

QuoteCB

??

In my world thats one of these: