VG-99 - Alright Now - Free (Paul Kossoff) - plus backing track

Started by Smash, May 26, 2013, 05:21:10 AM

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Smash

Well this was fun! It's one of those sounds that everyone - the world and his wife - have had a go at at some time or another.....so I thought I'd stick my 2 penneth in!

This patch cover both the double tracked left and right verse and the solo tones - buy one get one free!!  ;D

CTL 2 on the FC300 kicks in the solo tone.
Apologoies to those without FC300s but there about 10 control assigns going on on that one footswitch press and tbh I couldn't be bothered to remap them again on to one of the VG face panel controls - sorry!

Right - first things first - it is not possible for one person to play the exact chords that Paul did because he played different A inversions on the left and right tracks. You really want to get that top a in at the 5th fret on 1st string. You'll also notice that he makes a slide down from the low a which is only possible if you play the A at the 5th on the 6th string  ;)

So the rhythm side of the patch simulates double tracking by varying the delay to the left side based on the input level of the guitar. the solo tone is basically the RHS tone panned centre with flanger added to give that sucked EQ, boost level cranked a bit, main reverb switched on and the Mod2 Compressor out level ramped to lift the volume of the solo.

Question is does it sound even remotely like the real thing? Well, whilst not 100% accurate I think it gives a reasonable account of itself.

Demo: https://soundcloud.com/smashmashups/alright-now-vg99-patch-demo

And, because this is another classic track that is great to play along with the backing track is available here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?elelr51qhj5b93c

The tuning is all over the place with both Paul's Les Paul and Andy Fraser's bass clearly having intonation issues. Add to that tape degradation etc. and it's really hard to know what the tone was to start with!

Enjoy!  :D

https://soundcloud.com/smashmashups/alright-now-vg99-patch-demo

rolandvg99

Ah! That's how they played that song. Been "lying" my way through that one for too many years. Never played it the same way twice, but that goes for most things I play. I'm a terrible note-for-note player.  ;D

Great job on both the performance and the patch. It's way beyond alright. 8)
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Smash

Cheers buddy. Probably a pointless patch - I mean it has one use probably! - but I've got such a stack of multi trax I've collected from my time doing mash-ups I can't help going over some of this classic stuff  ;D

Might do a Rush one next... or I'll take requests!

aliensporebomb

Sounds great (especially your demo) but CTL-2 on my FC-300 lights up once and doesn't actually go to the solo tone.  I look under your assigns and it says A was set to COSM GTR to COSM GTR SW and 2 was set to PATCH LEVEL.  Ideas?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Smash

Weird! These are the Control Assigns for CTL2 that should be lit/active under the Editor:

FC300 tab
(B)FX Mod 2 Adv Comp level min 50 max 72 latch

ASSIGN tab
(A)FX DEL DELAY TIME  min 37ms max 19ms based on input
(A) COSM GTR COSM Switch min on max off latch
(B) Mixer Pan min 0:100R max Centre latch
(B) FX Reverb Reverb SW min On max Off latch
(B) FX Mod1 Sw min off max on
(B) FX Chorus chorus Sw min on max off latch
DeLay/Reverb: Reverb : Reverb Sw min off max on latch
(B) FX OD/DS: level min 63 max 100 latch

Nothing else should be active.

I just reloaded the .mid and it's working OK here - could be a global setup thing possibly?




aliensporebomb

#5
Quote from: Smash on May 26, 2013, 05:08:31 PM
Weird! These are the Control Assigns for CTL2 that should be lit/active under the Editor:

FC300 tab
(B)FX Mod 2 Adv Comp level min 50 max 72 latch

ASSIGN tab
(A)FX DEL DELAY TIME  min 37ms max 19ms based on input
(A) COSM GTR COSM Switch min on max off latch
(B) Mixer Pan min 0:100R max Centre latch
(B) FX Reverb Reverb SW min On max Off latch
(B) FX Mod1 Sw min off max on
(B) FX Chorus chorus Sw min on max off latch
DeLay/Reverb: Reverb : Reverb Sw min off max on latch
(B) FX OD/DS: level min 63 max 100 latch

Nothing else should be active.

I just reloaded the .mid and it's working OK here - could be a global setup thing possibly?

I think I see part of the problem - if I look at the patch in the editor on my setup the FC 300 tab is set to not use the CTL 2 footswitch but the actual second CTL pedal (it's highlighted as CTL Pedal 2) - maybe I misunderstood?  I thought pressing CTL2 would activate the solo tone but it's the pedal?  But it's not listed under EXP Pedal Switch 1/2 (and I never really knew how to make those switches work either because they don't seem to have an obvious click to them - they just feel like pedals).  What's odd is if I press CTL2 button the led lights up as if it's momentary and then goes out so that's why that isn't working, it's not referring to CTL2 switch.

Assign tab seems to have everything correctly but has the source for the first as input level and everything subsequent for source is FC-300 CTL2.

Lots of assigns - this is one area of the VG I haven't delved very deeply and I see I could do CRAZY things with a patch using them.

Unfortunately tomorrow I'm booked most of the day to help my wife's 100 year old great aunt move out of her assisted living and into a nursing home proper.  Lots to move sadly.  More later.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Smash

Nope you didn't misunerstand - CTL2 on the FC300 should switch in the lead tone.

Yep the assigns section is unbelievably powerful!! You should have a field day in there!  ;D

Indebted to Elantric for opening my eyes on that one...

aliensporebomb

Think I'm going to get some compressed air duster and blow out my FC-300.  It sits down on the floor level and I'm sure there is all manner of dust and debris inside it being that I have three cats.  The assigns looks like they should work but....
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Smash

Just out of interest - what mode are you running FC300 in?

aliensporebomb

#9
Quote from: Smash on May 27, 2013, 06:56:45 AM
Just out of interest - what mode are you running FC300 in?

That's the problem I think - I never ever change the mode - I've always used "standard".  What should I be using?  It seems to go to SYSEX a lot I notice.  I'm running v1.02 on the FC-300.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Smash


aliensporebomb

#11
Yes, now that I've cycled thru all patches sysex seems to be the majority of what comes up.  Not sure what's going on here but wiping my VG-99 isn't really an option here, at least right now it isn't an option.  What's odd is most of the patches work as advertised.  Might have to play some more.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

alexmcginness

I found a great use for this patch and the demo in particular. Its one of those kind of "hammer" to nail the argument closed things. Ill explain.
   Ive had a few friends that have gotten and dumped their 99s because according to them its " too digital " sounding. So, up comes the demo you posted and the question, " If you could get the 99 to sound close to this would it change your mind?" Everyone that listens to your demo with the actual backing track has been fooled and a few have said youll never get a modeler to come that close" WHAM!!!!!!! Case closed. Ive even posted a link to the demo on a couple of youtube vids where people are arguing over different guitar modelers and how 2017 tech still isnt real enough for them let alone amp modeling from a 2007 VG 99.
  Years ago I was in a piano bar with the owner of the music shop I worked in. The guy on stage was playing a very nice baby grand and it sounded like it should. I said to my boss, " You can never get that sound out of a sampler." They just looked at me and let me go on about how the real piano the guy on stage was playing could not be replicated by the current sampling tech. Bear in mind that this was in the early 80s. My boss said go up and take a look at what hes using. So I did and the baby Grand the guy was playing was just a shell and where the keys were supposed to be,  was a controller keyboard feeding a low cost Roland S-10 rack sampler. The one that took little mini disks and had 4 -1 second samples split over 88 notes. I was shocked! and completely fooled. I was listening with my eyes and it completely fooled my ears.
   This demo completely fools a lot of skeptics that Ive played it for. Great job.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Smash

That's a better use of the patch than playing the cover lol! Really great to hear - thanks for the feedback :)


aliensporebomb

I'm going to try this again when I get back from my trip.  Never did figure out why it didn't want to work.  But the demo is so good I want to try it!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

alexmcginness

Quote from: aliensporebomb on April 27, 2017, 12:28:24 PM
I'm going to try this again when I get back from my trip.  Never did figure out why it didn't want to work.  But the demo is so good I want to try it!

I punched this up and the patch transferred pretty good to the guitar Im using. Its great for recording but I had some trouble getting it to work live. Needs a fair bit of tweaking to get it sounding thru a PA.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

mooncaine

I enjoyed your demo. I've always enjoyed this song and I love to see articles where they tell you you've been doing it wrong, this is how it's really done on the original, yadda yadda etc.

I think the way you're playing it is great. I've done it in an open A tuning, myself. The least important bit, to me, is the high note in the A chord, but if you're in open A, you can get it on the last whack because the rest of the A chord is hands-free. I like your solo tone better than his. You've got a brighter sound than Kossof could get, I think, or at least get onto a vinyl LP.

I like to "dull down" my vintage cover song patches with the speaker sim settings to make it sound more like the record instead of a realistic, in-the-room sound like it oughtta be. I use Off Mic, set the mic distance some random distance away, and I use whichever mic has a name that starts with CND and is the longest name.*. I avoid the mic sim for the Shure SM57 (or is it 58) just to get a little difference in the sound, less bright.

Sometimes, I use a Tape Delay set to 1ms, all the way wet, no dry, and adjust its High Freq setting to dull things down. Sometimes, I use the EQ Effect because it's the only one that has a high shelf control on the last page of its settings, and I just roll it down to 11k.

It's sort of like putting fake film grain on a video, but after hearing these sounds A/B compared (easy to do on a VG-99), I finally learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Sim[/i].

alien, I bet you were confusing CTL2, "the footswitch," with CTL2, "the button on the VG-99's front panel." It can be confusing because they have the same name, even on the VG-99 screen. Gotta look at the graphic and also where, in the menus on the VG-99, you're seeing it. If you start from the leftmost Control Assign screen, and hit the Page Right button, you'll come to the CTL buttons first. See the graphic of a rectangle with rounded corners? That's an image of the button.

Keep hitting Page Right till you see more CTL thingies. Notice that the graphics are different. These are the FC-300's footswitches.

*I just tried to open VG-99 Editor twice on this Mac at the office, running Sierra. Both times, my Mac just abruptly kernel panicked and restarted. So, I can't tell you which mic sim setting that is.

alexmcginness

#18
Hey mooncaine thanks for more great programming tips. I never thought of using the tape delay like that. Ill give it a go. Theres so many ways to coax very authentic re creations out of the VG-99. The box still amazes me as Im always discovering new stuff that it will do. 
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

mooncaine

Hey, glad to share. I probably learned it from someone else on this forum, ya know? What am I saying, I definitely did.

Here's another I learned from a Craig Anderton article: use a few very short delays, like 1 to 7 ms but each set to a different time, to put some 'air' in a signal, to make it seem more like it's in an actual room or a box.

I don't like use it much, because it causes a kind of chewy, flanger effect when you bend strings or do vibrato. I'm not sure I understand it, but I think it works better if you have several delays in the path, so that their outputs kind of mix together, like blurring a video.

Elantric

QuoteHere's another I learned from a Craig Anderton article: use a few very short delays, like 1 to 7 ms but each set to a different time, to put some 'air' in a signal, to make it seem more like it's in an actual room or a box.

Most VG99 owners use the "chain delay" parameter ( there are two of them , (Chain A and Chain B) to achieve that same goal

mooncaine

Right, and it suffers the same prob: a chewy, flanger-y effect when you bend strings or do vibrato.

rolandvg99

I've often used the phaser at 0 depth to add "boxiness" and "wood". The chorus can also be used if you only want to alter a certain frequency area.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

aliensporebomb

#23
Update:  (yes, I know, many moons later) I wasn't using the "Control 2" on the VG's panel since Smash said to use the CTL2 on the FC-300.  But that's a good point to look at.

But I did find out something odd - the only way the FC-300 seems to control the VG-99 and vice versa is if the FC-300 is in sysex mode as discussed above.

But if I try this patch and press CTL2 down on the FC-300 it only does a momentary flash on CTL2 (even though the settings in control assigns is to latch not momentary) To - but if I set it in standard or control mode, the CTL2 lights up and stays lit.  But I don't think it's working right then since it's not in sysex mode.

The other thought - even though I increased my GK sensitivity to around 40 this patch sounds like a clean undistorted guitar almost like a guitar with a mild chorus box.  It's odd, sounds nothing like the distorted patch I'm hearing in the demo.  If I hit the guitar strings harder it gets closer and if I set gain switch on the amp controls to mid from low it's more like I would expect it to be but still not as full and warm as on the demo.

It's very possible my whole setup is doing weird things after years of programming weird patches constantly.  I may very well have to back everything up and start over I wonder. 

Update: were you guys using your standard pickups?  My standard pickups sound much more like the demo than my GK pickup.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

alexmcginness

Im using the patch as is on this and it sounds pretty much the same as the demo.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.