External multi-voice hardware Tone Generators for MIDI Guitarists

Started by sixeight, July 06, 2008, 06:03:15 AM

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Piing

If you want to go beyond the classical Roland/Korg/Yamaha patches, the Clavia Nord Modular G2 Rack has unique sounds and it is very fun to program. I have been gigging with it few years (triggered from Axon AX100). I sold it to buy a Fantom-XR (to have the sampling option) and I did regret of the change, altough I agree with arkieboy when he says that the Fantom-XR is the best and most complete Sound Module that you can get (the G2 is actually a Modular Synthesizer, not a Sound Module).

The 1U rack has no display and no other buttons than ON/OFF switch, so you have to do your homework with a computer before going to the stage.


http://www.clavia.se/main.asp?tm=Products&clpm=Nord_Modular_G2


arkieboy

Piing - I ruled out the G2 Engine with a heavy heart and an empty wallet: it's 4 part multitimbral which means you need two of them if you play six strings.  And clavia gear isn't cheap and holds its value


Of course, if you're using a VG99 then you're probably going to use the VG for your lead patches so this would be less important ...


Steve
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

musicman65

Long time Proteus 2000 user here. I drive it with a VG99. Very versatile, reliable, dirt cheap, and triggers better than some of the other units I've tried.

bd

cell7

Quote from:  Piing on November 14, 2012, 10:35:37 PM
If you want to go beyond the classical Roland/Korg/Yamaha patches, the Clavia Nord Modular G2 Rack has unique sounds and it is very fun to program. I have been gigging with it few years (triggered from Axon AX100). I sold it to buy a Fantom-XR (to have the sampling option) and I did regret of the change, altough I agree with arkieboy when he says that the Fantom-XR is the best and most complete Sound Module that you can get (the G2 is actually a Modular Synthesizer, not a Sound Module.

The 1U rack has no display and no other buttons than ON/OFF switch, so you have to do your homework with a computer before going to the stage.

I use the nord micro modular sometimes, and i still love it (I have 2!). They are cheap as hell now on eBay, very small and they actually have a few knobs to grab onto.
Also don't forget sampletank on the iPhone or ipad makes an excellent module for the vg99. Works a treat.

Elantric

Just to add a few more possible solutions for external tone generators

The Yamaha MO-6, MO-8

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/synthesizers/mo/mo8/?mode=model





Roland PMA-5 (battery powered) - basically a Roland Sound Canvas SC-55 with MIDI Sequencer you can hold in your hand and already has a solution for Assigning different Alt Tunings on every PMA-5 patch!


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/aug96/rolandpma5.html?print=yes


SoundQuest PMA-5 Editor

https://squest.com/Products/MidiQuest13/Instruments/RolandPMA-5/index.html



--

And i felt it worth while to repeat the info I already posted last January in the massive FTP thread

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg54380#msg54380


Also I will point out a few more details.

Some of this may appear as useless trivia, but I will explain never the less.
One must remember back in the late 1980's to late 1990's  - Creative Labs Soundblasters were THE defacto standard for PC audio, and the Soundblaster16 sold millions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster_16

It had a 26 pin  expansion header for an optional "Waveblaster" board, which was essentially a MIDI triggered ROMpler and gave the PC its first taste of playing sounds that resembled real instruments.
Even Brian Eno wrote music spcifically composed on the SoundBlaster AWE
http://music.hyperreal.org/artists/brian_eno/discog.html
Due to the millions of SoundBlaster16 cards installled in Every new Dell computer, Soon there was a new market for third parties to build a better version of the WaveBlaster.

Roland had SCD-10 and SCD-15 - which had the Roland SC-55 SoundCanvas sound engine on a small "WaveBlaster" compatible board.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Sound_Canvas
Trivia -  The Roland Sound Canvas was the basis for Apples "Quicktime Instruments". Apple got the credit, but Roland provided the multi-sampled sound libraries that responded to touch response.

QuoteApple released QuickTime 2.0 for System Software 7 in February 1994—the only version never released for free. It added support for music tracks, which contained the equivalent of MIDI data and which could drive a sound-synthesis engine built into QuickTime itself (using a limited set of instrument sounds licensed from Roland),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTime

At a NAMM show in the mid 1990's I saw a Kurzweil "WaveBlaster board that was never released in USA at the Young Chang booth.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~wz4k-tnk/digital/summit.html



This eventually ended up as the hardware synth engine on a Turtle Beach Pinacle Sound card. 

http://retrosoundcards.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/turtle-beach-pinnacle-rev-f-turtle-beach-pinnacle-rev-d/
http://alasir.com/software/multisound/


Turtle Beach had their "RIO Waveblaster card that also supported external DRAM, for holding PCM samples


Yamaha re-engineered a compatible Waveblaster board they marketed as the "DB50XG"  -
XG Synth engines were Yamaha's  version of the Roland Sound Canvas. These were far more plentiful in the 1990's when Andras Szalay designed a "Waveblaster Header" inside the Axon AX-100 - but the internal AX-100 code was written specifically to support the NRPN RPN control addresses of the DB50XG.


In Asia Yamaha marketed a "DB60XG" Waveblaster board, but in America, Yamaha only sold the DB60XG as an internal PC ISA card - in an attempt to persuade PC makers to buy Yamaha, not Creative labs products. The whole Yamaha PC sound IC division was run out of the same building in San Jose where Dave Smith ran Sequential Circuits prior to bankruptcy.


So move to the present time, and we find that "WaveBlaster boards are not available from any source.
The 2005 RoHS /Weee initiative killed off all "non Lead Free" electronics,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive

and Many Many electronic companies either merged , regrouped, or re-tooled existing product lines for  Lead Free, or ceased production.
But Yamaha decided to get out of the IC business, as the Lead Free costs were too high.
Terratec did the math and ceased Axon production too - not because they could not find buyers, but because the Lead Free retooling costs were too prohibitive.



Two years ago Andras Szalay was inquiring on MIDI guitar forums if anyone had specs for the current "chinese clone" equivalent to the Yamaha DB60XG "waveblaster board , which was the final replacement for the long discontinued DB50XG.

The DB50XG was the internal Hardware MIDI Synth engine for the Axon AX-100, and the secret to its FAST low latency internal hardware synth engine.



The DB50XG shared the same internal Yamaha XG Synth engine as the Yamaha MU-10 (Battery Powered)
http://www.megatrade.ru/English/mu10.html



Some links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_XG


Should you locate an old WaveBlaster compatible board, here is a link to a Japanese site with plans on putting it in a box for use as a stand alone MIDI Tone generator 

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~wz4k-tnk/digital/summit.html






and a recent English tutorial on "DB-50XG In a box

http://web.archive.org/web/20140901135611/http://www.joebrown.org.uk/wp/?p=3124
First take a look at the specifications listed alongside. Look familiar? Well, to Waveblaster fans probably, as this is the spec. of the Yamaha DB50XG daughterboard, a phenomenally successful product in a long line of excellent audio/MIDI offerings by Yamaha.

For a while now, I've come across articles on using a second-hand DB50XG (or clone) as a stand-alone synthesizer, and last week, I took the plunge and ordered a board from Hong Kong via ebay. The supplier sent me an email saying delivery would take up to 20 days, actually it took 2 days. I drew up a schematic in Eagle, and made the whole unit, including a printed circuit board and separate power-supply yesterday. The result is now soak-testing on my bench.

What's my first impressions? I'm blown away with the sheer quality of the sounds Yamaha have produced, and I'm only sorry I didn't jump in earlier. In fact I'm thinking of building another, so as to run both in parallel for a really rich sound.
For once, this project contains no PIC and no software, and uses purely conventional components. (no SMD)

Links to the zipped Eagle project, and details of suppliers can be found at the foot of this post.









Years ago Roland even marketed their own Roland SCD-15 "WaveBlaster Board which had Sound Canvas type tones

of course the Yamaha XG was the typical Waveblaster board installed in most Axons 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Wave_Blaster
While the original Waveblaster greatly improved upon the acoustic quality of the SB16's built-in FM-synthesis, the acoustic quality of its instrument-set was poorly regarded.[by whom?] By the general public. By the time the SB16 reached the height of its popularity, competing MIDI-daughterboards had already pushed aside the Waveblaster. In particular, Roland's Sound Canvas daughterboards (SCD-10/15), priced higher than Creative's offering, were highly regarded for their unrivalled musical reproduction in MIDI-scored game titles. (This was due to Roland's dominance in the production aspect of the MIDI game soundtracks; Roland's daughterboards shared the same synthesis-engine and instrument sound-set as the popular Sound Canvas 55, a commercial MIDI module favored by game composers.) By comparison, the WaveBlaster's instruments were improperly balanced, with many instruments striking at different volume-levels (relative to the de facto standard, Sound Canvas.)[citation needed]

Since 2000, Wave Blaster-capable sound cards for computers are becoming rare. In 2005, Terratec released a new Wave Blaster daughterboard called the Wave XTable with 16mb of on-board sample memory comprising 500 instruments and 10 drum kits. In 2014, a new compatible card called Dreamblaster S1 was produced by the Belgian company Serdaco. In 2015 that same company released a high end card named Dreamblaster X1, comparable to Yamaha and Roland cards. In 2016 DreamBlaster X2 was released, a board with both waveblaster interface and USB interface.



https://www.serdashop.com/DreamBlasterX2
DreamBlaster X2 Advanced WaveBlaster + USB Synth

Have a look at the user manual
http://serdaco.com/downloads/X2/X2_Documentation/DreamBlaster%20X2%20User%20Manual.pdf
- Small formfactor midi PCB : 65mm x 38mm size
- Black color PCB
- Dream 5000 series synth chip with 81 voices polyphony, high quality effects engine
- Waveblaster compatible connector for use on soundcards (such as Soundblaster 16, Audician 32, ESS AudioDrive, Aureal Vortex 2 and many others...) and DIY projects.
- It will also work on instruments that accept waveblaster cards, such as Oberheim MC2000, Korg NS5R and Terratex Axon AX 100
- Super low latency <1ms
- 64mbyte flash for soundbank data
- USB MIDI in (Class compliant midi device, works on windows XP and higher, without drivers)
- stereo line out using a high quality 24 bit DAC   
- Preloaded with a high quality 16 megabyte Dream General MIDI soundbank
- Advanced MIDI commands spec available.
- DreamBlaster preset editor / USB uploader tool for advanced customization/tweaking.

Downloads available at http://serdaco.com/downloads/X2/

Sound Demo's here on soundcloud : http://soundcloud.com/dreamblaster

Please note: There are some older soundcards with a Waveblaster compatible header but don't have an MPU401 interface. Instead there is only the SoundBlaster MIDI standard supported so the games that run with the X2 module are limited. Also you need SoftMPU to emulate the MPU401 interface in this case. Visit http://bjt42.github.io/softmpu/ for further information and a list of compatible games.

Some MIDI game tracks played on the X2 :



https://hackaday.io/project/19497-dreamblaster-x2-midi-synthesizer

Elantric

The Teenage Engineering OpLab also provides a USB Host Port  - which could work with FTP.

http://www.teenageengineering.com/products/oplab



Or build your own USB Host to MIDI I/O adapter
(http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/11/usbhacking.html)

Or use iConnectMIDI  / Kenton USB Host to MIDI box  - or Raspberry Pi

mbenigni

QuoteAnd i felt it worth while to repeat the info I already posted last January in the massive FTP thread

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg54380#msg54380

Awesome - informative and nostalgia-inducing.

QuoteThe Teenage Engineering OpLab also provides a USB Host Port  - which could work with FTP.

Either this company needs to stop making such cool stuff or I need to get a second job.  FTP -> OpLab -> OP1 would be a really fun rig, but not cheap.

Elantric

QuoteEither this company needs to stop making such cool stuff or I need to get a second job.  FTP -> OpLab -> OP1 would be a really fun rig, but not cheap.

Teenage Engineering gear is definitely priced comfortably for folks who by a new Ferrari every 3 years.
http://www.teenageengineering.com/store

Look at the price for the official Teenage Engineering desk lamp  - $749
http://www.teenageengineering.com/store

http://www.teenageengineering.com/products/studio-system



Elantric

QuoteFTP -> OpLab -> OP1 would be a really fun rig, but not cheap.


FTP > Yamaha MOX6 is more in my price range



The recent Yamaha MOX6 also includes a "USB Host" port for Tripleplay

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan12/articles/yamaha-mox6.htm


only supports "USB Mass Storage" ;(

mbenigni

QuoteLook at the price for the official Teenage Engineering desk lamp  - $749

Wow.  :o   Even compared to their other prices that's over the top.

Yes, Teenage Engineering is like an extreme version of Apple in the sense of having hardware with beautiful aesthetics at premium prices.  The OpLab is plainly a chip on a breadboard at a 10X markup, but they package everything so nicely you just want one.

Yamaha, by contrast, has always offered excellent value - workhorse products that sound great at reasonable prices.

I still secretly want an OP1, though.  :)

germanicus

Elantric Im not so sure the 'To Host' port in the Yamaha keyboards functions as such. I may be completely wrong, but my keyboardist has a Motif XS8 with the same set of ports, and my Tripleplay did nothing. It may be that we needed to activate the port somehow in a sub menu but im not sure. I believe the port is used to access a usb storage device, not act as a midi port. At least on his Yamaha.

On the other hand, he recently got a Roland Integra-7 (it has an incredible set of sounds - including pianos which are comparable to his RDX keyboard - which are the best ive heard outside of huge sample library samples). The Integra does have a midi in over USB, but I need a female USB A to male USB B converter to try it.


My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

Elantric

Thanks for the info on the Yamaha

I admit the "USB Host ports there need to be verified with Tripleplay.

The old Roland SonicCell also has a USB Host port - so does the GR-55 inside the plastic side door - but those only support "USB Mass Storage"

QuoteThe Integra does have a midi in over USB, but I need a female USB A to male USB B converter to try it.

You will need more than that  - today even Costco Yamaha Student keyboard all have MIDI In via USB port.

A simple gender changer for the Tripleplay receiver will not work

Still need a "USB Host to MIDI convertor box" - like the Kenton or iConnectMIDI.

Or Build your own USB Host to MIDI convertor

http://www.chipkit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=980





shawnb


Using FTP, I'm having much success - and GREAT fun - with the Roland SC-880.


Synthmania writeup:
http://www.synthmania.com/SC-880.htm

Sound on Sound writeup:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep98/articles/roland_sc880.html

VERY easy to line up 6 mono voices & go to town!!!
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

aliensporebomb

Wow, no teenager I know could AFFORD Teenage Engineerings beautifully designed stuff.

I second the voting on Yamaha.  In fact, I just realized my Yamaha keyboard synthesizer has a USB port, I've never tried to use it with my VG-99.  Intrigued.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

Just to update this list

Korg Microstation
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/korg-microstation.htm

Not much bigger than a Behringer FCB-1010- a 61 minikey Workstation with good Multi-timbaral internal Synth Engine.
Whether it's used for compact studio control, as an easy songwriting tool, or a powerful additionto a live performance rig, MicroStation is the "Micro Multi-Tool" to suit your needs!

MicroStation offers unprecedented portability, the stunning sound of Korg's EDS-i synth engine (M3, M50), dual arpeggiators, and phenomenal effects; all the tools you would expect in a keyboard/workstation housed in a smaller - and extremely affordable - package.

Whether performing or composing, the on-board sequencer can be anything from an extra set of hands or a powerful drum machine up to a full-blown MIDI production suite. Loop Recording, Grid Sequencing, Song Templates, and One-Step recording features make it easy for anyone to achieve professional results.

Main features

    Lightweight, compact, and equipped with 61 mini-keys, the microSTATION travels easily and fits effortlessly into any home, stage, or studio workspace.

    EDS-i (Enhanced Definition Synthesis-integrated) sound engine delivers high-quality sound in the tradition of KORG's flagship synthesizers.

    Enjoy 480 outstanding, ready-to-use sounds – including keyboard sounds, synth sounds, drums, leads, basses, etc. Tweak, edit, create and save up to 512 sound Programs.

    256 dynamic Combinations place different sounds on different areas of the keyboard, or layer multiple sounds together for exciting performances – right out of the box!

    Find the right sound fast with eight quickly accessible categories; hundreds of Audition Riffs allow you to preview each sound.

    A full General MIDI level 2 compatible soundset allows commercial and pre-made MIDI files to be played perfectly and instantly.

    Designed for comfort and accuracy, our 61-key Natural Touch Mini Keyboard is highly expressive and supports serious playing.

    Whether performing or composing, the on-board sequencer can be anything from an extra set of hands or a powerful drum machine up to a full-blown MIDI production suite.

    Loop Recording, Grid Sequencing, Dual Arpeggiators, Template songs, and Auto Song Setup features make it easy for anyone to achieve professional results.

    SD/SDHC card slot for convenient storage or your custom sounds and songs.

    USB Type-B connector offers a direct MIDI connection to your computer.

    Includes both stand-alone and plug-in microSTATION software for detailed sound editing on your computer; plug-in software is VST, AU, and RTAS compatible.


Korg Microstation Forum link
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=62






romero

http://www.bketech.com/beat-thang-tour/



This supports&powers usb keyboards, would it work triple play? Actually I was checking to see if i could use it to play samples triggered from my GR-55

romero




Several years ago i used this (ROLAND MC 808) http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/766  with my GI-20. It worked quite well, you can assign different sounds to every string and control them with the fader/mute/solo ect and use the d beam + it samples, sequences, and much more. I am considering getting another for live

Rhcole



In the spirit of my earlier post about using hardware synths with FTP, I thought we might share notes about the synths we love. eBay is a treasure chest of old and forgotten synths that could get new life as Triple Play guitar synths.

For your consideration I submit my mighty Korg M3M, the modular version of its M3 series discontinued last year. These were pricey new and still not cheap but have incredible sound and features. I bought mine because it's a high-end synth without a keyboard, not easy to find. It's also bulky even with no keyboard attached.  Still, it's a great box worth checking out.

Elantric

I like my Korg Microstation

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6204.msg70356#msg70356

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6767.msg66401#msg66401




Refer to this existing thread with many recommended hardware synths for MIDI Guitar

External multi-voice hardware Tone Generators for MIDI Guitarists
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6767.0

thebrushwithin

FWIW, in the past I noticed, when triggering multiple synth units, through a midi thru box, that, all things being equal patch wise, the Yamaha synth would always respond quicker than the other outboard gear.

Rhcole

You know, the fact that there aren't more suggestions here may mean Roland is on the right track in dropping the 5 pin MIDI jacks...

Elantric

QuoteYou know, the fact that there aren't more suggestions here may mean Roland is on the right track in dropping the 5 pin MIDI jacks...


Remember there is far more to MIDI  than simply driving synths. 

* No 5 pin MIDI I/O on Boss GP-10 means no proper MIDI Foot controller option for live performance control .

* No 5 pin MIDI I/O on Boss GP-10 means no path for integration into a show band's  central unified Show control computer system.

Add the fact the Boss GP-10's USB port is not USB Class Compliant  =  Zero opportunity For Boss GP-10 to drive iPad Synths :(
Which speaks volumes  - and tells the world that:

A)  Roland considers connectivity to iPad For Live Music creation is an irrelevant task for MIDI Guitarists in 2014 -2015

B) Roland does not want to compete with Fishman Tripleplay in the Guitar to MIDI retail space.


   

EDIT: Luckily we crowd sourced our own work-arounds to overcome the factory limitations.

Read

Boss GP-10 - How to implement 5 pin MIDI I/O with Raspberry Pi
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11998.0


Boss GP-10 MIDI I/O on Android 4.4.4
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11854.msg85813#msg85813


PrimovaSound MIDX-20
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17561.0

mchad

Quote from: Elantric on July 09, 2014, 10:12:13 PM

Remember there is far more to MIDI  than simply driving synths. 

* No 5 pin MIDI I/O on Boss GP-10 means no proper MIDI Foot controller option for live performance control .

* No 5 pin MIDI I/O on Boss GP-10 means no path for integration into a show band's  central unified Show control computer system.

Add the fact the Boss GP-10's USB port is not USB Class Compliant  =  Zero opportunity For Boss GP-10 to drive iPad Synths :(
Which speaks volumes  - and tells the world that:

A)  Roland considers connectivity to iPad For Live Music creation is an irrelevant task for MIDI Guitarists in 2014 -2015

B) Roland does not want to compete with Fishman Tripleplay in the Guitar to MIDI retail space.


   

EDIT: Luckily we crowd sourced our own work-arounds to overcome the factory limitations.

Read

Boss GP-10 - How to implement 5 pin MIDI I/O with Raspberry Pi
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11998.0


Boss GP-10 MIDI I/O on Android 4.4.4
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11854.msg85813#msg85813

Should Codesmart's MIDX-10 be added to this?


arkieboy

It's been posted elsewhere on this site, but for those of you who have stumbled upon this thread through search, the new Roland D05 has an identical midi spec to the Roland D550 - not only (I understand) can you use the PG1000 to programme the unit IT COMES WITH MIDI MONO MODE (AKA guitar synth mode)!!!  Which means with the wealth of great sounds available, if you're using a FTP or a VG99 it is an absolute steal.


I owned a 550 for several years back when it was the dogs: and it really was.  I've heard the unit described as a 'pig with lipstick' because the foundational sound of the oscillators isn't desperately good.  But its what comes out of the L-R outputs that matters and the D50/D550/D05 deliver in spades.



(That's not to say its a great expander for the GR55, its just the D05 and the GR55 share the family sound and you'd probably want to choose something else if you want some new noises to play ...)
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4