Looper decision getting agravating

[Hopkins]

I look forward to seeing how you get on.  I have just spent 20 minutes going through the manual and it appears to be very capable!  A very simple (and probably incomplete) summary of my interpretation:

Boomerang Pros:
- Up to four loops (although the fourth comes at the expense of one of the two "bonus" buttons, and since these are required to clear, undo, etc. it is quite limiting)
- "Serial-sync" mode (playing everything in serial mode except for one background loop that plays continuously - RC-300 can't do this)
- Full control over decay (from infinite to repeat once, again, not in the RC-300 repertoire)
- Relatively compact

RC-300 Pros:
- Two buttons per loop, plus another two and an expression pedal (I like to "punch in, punch out" phrases without looping them but just to store for later use.  This is far more fiddly to do on the Boomerang)
- The ability to predefine relative loop lengths, tempos and other settings and record/play in any order
- Multiple memories to set up different groups of settings for different songs.
- Many effects and a built in rhythm guide (with many time signatures and drum patterns!)
- The ability to store loops (but not the ability to "mixdown" a full performance, sadly!)

Synchronised Loop Mode:

This works completely differently on both devices.  I would suggest that understanding how the two devices behave in this mode is critical to your choice of looper.  I will try to summarise the difference:

The RC-300 always uses the longest phrase to define the loop (this can change on the fly, or you can predefine it).  It keeps the structure of the all phrases in memory and you can imagine them to be playing in the background continuously.  Then, when you "start" a phrase, it will become audible immediately and may be in the middle of the phrase depending on the timings.  If a smaller loop does not fit into the longest loop, then it will leave a "remainder" of silence at the end, until the longest phrase loops.

The Boomerang (again, from the manual, I have not used this personally) appears to behave like this:  phrase 3 must be the "master" loop.  Recording and playing must begin when phrase 3 loops.  Phrase 3 must be playing to record, but not to play back.  For example, if you hit "record"  during phrase 3 playback, then no recording will begin until phrase 3 loops, at which point recording will begin without further input.  The same applies to "play", however you *do* have the facility to play back other phrases even if phrase 3 is not playing (in this case, playback commences when any loop restarts).

For my use, where I am trying to write structured music and reproduce it live like a one man band, the RC-300 seems to be more suitable.  I can imagine the Boomerang being more suitable for certain types of improvised performances, but I will have to defer that judgement to someone else!

[gumbo]

Solo and improvised use of the Boomerang....

...do a search for (Oz) artist Mal Webb - he has been using one for some time along with the Headrush..  there will be a bit of his stuff out there on the Net...

HTH

[mojo thorne]

I've got a RC-20, Akai Headrush, Boomerang+.a RangIII, and a ton of delay pedals that do looping (line6, boss dd-20, etc).  I bought the III after I got my GR55 because I wanted to get the stereo loop ability without sacrificing all of the really cool stuff that my original Rang could do in a live setting.  I've not used an RC-50 or RC-300, but I have a hard time believing that I would prefer either over the Rang III.  Although, I'm only using it in live applications and have no need to store or recall loops.

The Boomerang III addressed the problems with the original models (mostly the noise which is now completely gone) while keeping the flexible options such as switching between serial or free play.  I got a really good price on it through Amazon around Christmas time (about $300) and if you get the side car, it really opens it up by giving you control of every possible feature with your feet.  I thought that i would miss the roller volume control, but it actually is much easier to manage with a standard volume pedal.

If you don't need the ability to save and recall loops, then the Rang III is the best thing out there at the moment.

[Hopkins]

According to the Boomerang III manual, when you are recording in sync mode you must first record the master loop (loop 3) and then you *must have the master loop playing* in order to record other loops.  I have compositions where the first loop I play is not playing continuously, and later loops must be recorded without the first loop playing.

I also have situations where the first loop I record is long, and subsequent loops are short, i.e. 6 bars for the first loop and perhaps 2 for a subsequent loop, so the short loop fits inside the long loop three times.  I then need to start the short loop during the first, e.g. the long loop has played 2 bars and then the short loop must start at the beginning of bar 3.

From studying the manual, I do not think that either of these things are possible with the Boomerang III, but I am open to correction.

[mojo thorne]

The Boomerang does require you to record the master loop first, but you can record record that loop with no sound, and then set your other loops.  You could do this while still playing live if you utilize a TB box or switchable effects loop pedal, provided that you don't need to start your next loop immediately after the master loop is recorded.  I've done this a bit... recorded silence while tapping out the beat. 

It's definitely not possible with the Rang to record a long loop and then sync shorter loops with it.  The way that I read the Boss manual, I don't know if that pedal allows you to sync up shorter loops like you've described (ie - a shorter loop fitting three times within the longer loop) unless you're okay with the potential for some dead air to follow the shorter loops.  I could definitely be wrong about that, and have not ever tried the RC-300.  It does seem to be a better choice for someone who's interested in using looped phrases as part of a composition versus improvisation.

[Hopkins]

Yes, the RC-300 does allow you to do the shorter loops into a longer loop (I have an RC-300 and I have tried to test it as much as possible!) and you can do this without pre-defining track lengths.  As long as the length of the longer loop is a multiple of the length of the shorter loop it will work - if it is not then you will get as many whole loops as possible followed by a "remainder" of silence.

[mojo thorne]

Ah... then I did misunderstand the manual.  That's a pretty awesome feature, especially if you can sync it to an external clock for live performance (ie - without having to pre-define the lenghts).  I think having a stretch of silence could be somewhat annoying if you were trying to loop syncopated parts of different lengths. 

I'm going to have to find one of those and try it out... maybe cash out some of my older pedals...

[Hopkins]

Yes, the way it combines the three tracks to make a continuous loop on the fly is very clever.  If, for example, you record a two bar track then it will loop continuously.  Then, if you record a three bar track, the two bar track will play but there will be 1 bar of silence on the end until the three bar track loops.  If you then record a six bar track, both shorter loops will immediately begin to play continuously since they both fit into 6 bars (the three bar track will repeat twice and the two bar track will repeat three times).  If you subsequently delete the six bar track, then the looper will revert to the original behaviour for the two and three bar tracks only.  All of this happens on the fly with all tracks playing and without the need to predefine track lengths!  If you want to test this in a shop, then you need to click on each track button, scroll to the "Track1:Measure AUTO" and change it to "Track1:Measure FREE" (p17 of the manual).

One other thing worth mentioning with the RC-300 is that you can turn off "loop sync" (which means that all tracks loop completely independently) but leave on "tempo sync" (which snaps the end of a recording to the nearest bar).  This mode means that you still need to time the start of playback of a loop accurately for it to be "in time", but at least all loops will be a precise length so they will not drift.  Actually, in the "RC-300 Improvements" thread I started, one of the requests is to have an additional mode which would be similar to this but where the the start of playback snaps to the beginning of a bar.  (I can imagine the technical challenge this would present, but I do not think it surpasses any other technical challenges that the developers have overcome!)

Edit 2012-10-05: more recent experimentation has shown that the RC-300 can also loop all three tracks in a gapless manner while quantising their length and snapping them to the nearest measure.

[VariousArtist]

Well gang, the trigger has been pulled! The Boomerang III won. I called them today to ask a few questions and clarify a couple of things..... .......

I'm in the middle of exactly the same dilemma between the two loopers mentioned on this thread and just came across this courtesy of a friend.

So, at the risk of resurrecting an old thread, I am curious how you feel about your purchase a few months later?

[jkstraw]

I am not the original poster (obviously) - but have spent years with the Boss loopers (20xl and Rc50). I have owned my Rang III for 6 months now - fantastic!  I am a live usage user (i.e. no need to store clips).  Boss just didn't deliver the way this does (ease of use,visual feedback, etc).

[Mrchevy]

I haven't used the boomerang in about a month ( work), and haven't got to use it to explore it completely but this is what I think so far... It is a fantastic looper with pretty much any option you would need for LIVE looping on the fly. The pedal switches appear to be solenoid switches which make for a very light and sensitive pedal touch as opposed to the RC300 which I assume are the same as the rest of the Roland pedal switches, not bad but different. This pedal is only something I would suggest for live, on the fly performance use only. In that respect, it appears to be superior and easier to work than the RC300.
  The cons, no usb connectivity, if you need to do an update it seems to me to be a hassle but as it comes, it is fully functional and a solid performer, does what you want with NO glitches. No midi clock sync currently right now but is suppose to be in the works, word is "don't hold your breath". If you think you would EVER need to have any kind of storage capability, or the use of pre recorded beats or tracks, go for the RC300 as the RANG has none and never will. It all boils down to what you want to do with looping. Both are probably the best available right now but while both do the same thing, they each lean in different directions of looping.
  If there is something specific you would like to know about the RANG, ask and I will do my best to answer what I know. Basically, I have no regrets

[Hopkins]

Boss just didn't deliver the way this does (ease of use,visual feedback, etc).

Can you be more specific?  Having a dedicated pair of pedals for each of the three loops is very useful for live situations, and the Boomerang's restrictions for recording and playback of loops in synchronised mode does seem limiting.

The pedal switches appear to be solenoid switches which make for a very light and sensitive pedal touch as opposed to the RC300 which I assume are the same as the rest of the Roland pedal switches, not bad but different.

Yes, the switches are exactly what you would expect from Roland.  The RC-300 is big...  If compactness is key, then someone pointed this interesting new modular looper idea from Digitech:

http://www.digitech.com/en-US/products/jamman-solo

If there is something specific you would like to know about the RANG, ask and I will do my best to answer what I know. Basically, I have no regrets

Yes, I would like to know whether my interpretation of the Boomerang's behaviour at the top of this page is correct.

[jkstraw]

Quote from: jkstraw on Today at 02:35:38 PM
Boss just didn't deliver the way this does (ease of use,visual feedback, etc).

Can you be more specific?  Having a dedicated pair of pedals for each of the three loops is very useful for live situations, and the Boomerang's restrictions for recording and playback of loops in synchronised mode does seem limiting.

Yes - no argument here - I think for flexibility...jack of all trades the boss (and jamman pedals) top the rang series hands down.  If you are looking for a straight forward looper that has really nice basic features like fade in/out, multiple loops, great foot switches, undo/redo.....i.e. basic looping features implemented in a simple effective and efficient way the rang is king (though I am sure the looperative LP1 is flexible enough as well...but $$$).

It sounds like your use case isn't necessarily a simple looper - dedicated switches (i.e. more than one) for each loop - that requirement takes the Rang out of your consideration right there.  My Rc-50 (and I am guessing the 300 as well) was an awesome pedal...sounds like that format may be closer to your needs. 

[Mrchevy]

  Hopkins, for as far as I have gotten with playing with the RANG, I would say your interpretation is fairly accurate. The RC300 is much more suited for processing and storing looping material and the Rang more for live improv.

  It is ironic this thread was fired back up at this point in time. I had commented on the midi clock thing with the RANG in my post earlier today and was just checking my E-mail a bit ago. I just received an email from Mike Nelson at Boomerang Musical Products in response to one I sent him about a week ago. This from the man himself...

Hi Rangsters,
        This is an update on the soon-to-be-released MIDI software for the Rang(TM) III. We currently have 2 versions of alpha software that work well, but each has its quirks. We are in the process of eliminating the quirks so the software is as easy to use as possible. Currently it's rock solid as far as syncing is concerned, but we want it to be the easiest to use of all the loopers on the market. Additionally the MIDI Start and Stop commands will be implemented. A Stop command will stop all playing loops, and a Start command will play those loops that were playing when the Stop command was received; this could be none, one or multiple loops. This seems like the best response to this command.
        We hope to have this software available before the end of the year. Scheduling software development is difficult at best, so that's the closest I can come to a completion date. We'll certainly make an announcement on our website when it's soup.
        Stay tuned and thanks for your patience. This upgrade will definitely be worth the wait.

        Thanks,

Mike
       
--

Mike Nelson
Secretary/Treasurer, Boomerang Management, Inc.
General Partner of Boomerang Musical Products, Ltd.

Perhaps a light at the end of the tunnel.

It sounds like your use case isn't necessarily a simple looper - dedicated switches (i.e. more than one) for each loop - that requirement takes the Rang out of your consideration right there.  My Rc-50 (and I am guessing the 300 as well) was an awesome pedal...sounds like that format may be closer to your needs. 

I believe the RANG functions the same but uses just the one yellow BONUS button to control all 3 loops in this manor rather than one for each loop, it just depends on what loops are playing and which mode your in. I'm not real proficient in the use of loopers so my knowledge is probably between beginner and novice. I think the addition of the midi clock function and the midi start/stop function will be a big addition to what could be done with it.
One other thing in regards to the RANG update coming that was not mentioned in the email but was discussed in a prior conversation with Mr. Nelson, the RANG's midi clock will function as a slave only, unless they make a change to that also.

[Hopkins]

One other thing in regards to the RANG update coming that was not mentioned in the email but was discussed in a prior conversation with Mr. Nelson, the RANG's midi clock will function as a slave only, unless they make a change to that also.

Interesting - the opposite approach to the RC-300!  I think it is because the RC-300 attempts to pitch-correct loops which are sped up or slowed down - the possibility of syncing to a floating MIDI clock input might have caused problems.  I wonder how the Rang will do it.

The RC300 is much more suited for processing and storing looping material and the Rang more for live improv.

It is true that you can store loops and apply effects, but I see those features as "extras".  Sorry to keep banging on, but I just don't see why the Boss is less suitable for live improv.  I agree that it may be too large for some gigs, and also that it is lacking a loop decay feature which would be a negative point for some styles of improv.  Fade in would be nice, but this could be done via the expression pedal.  What else do you need that it does not have?

[Brak(E)man]

I throwing in Boss Gigadelay DD 20 in the mix when it comes to live looping without storage ,sync , Usb, or midi,

I use it instead of my Electrix Repeater and Lexicon Jamman since it's lightweight and small, the pedals and controls works fine and with the extra boss FS-5L latch footswitch I have all the control and loops I need, 2 Stereo loops independent of each other regarding lenght , mode etc, although it has a dedicated SOS "loop mode"( is rather basic ), I find the delay modes so much more useful with the fade in and out functions ( although manually ), the only snag is , that I have to preplan when I leave one loop what's going to happen to it, (once you leave it you have no control over that loop except to kill it). It's cheap so if it breaks , get another one , that said I've used mine since 05 without any problems , and flying with that and VG 99 is a treat ,since both fits your carry on , check out
http://www.loopers-delight.com/tools/bossDD20/bossDD20.html
http://www.loopers-delight.com/tools/bossDD20/bossDD20_review1.html
http://www.loopers-delight.com/tools/bossDD20/bossDD20_review2.html

[Mrchevy]

   Hopkins, I did not mean to imply that the RC300 was LESS able for live performance than the RANG. Any looper  can suffice if it does what you need in a performance, what I meant was that the features available on the RANG ( or lack of features ) make that unit ITSELF more fitted for live, on the fly type work as you can't save created loops with it for future use. The difference being, you can create the same loops, for the most part, with both but, with the RC300, you can save the loops and use them next week, the RANG you can't, you have to re create the loops each time you perform with it ( keeps you honest ). Now, with the implementation of the midi clock on the RANG, I wonder if you Would be able to create a loop file with midi clock info in it on an external device, and then sync it with the RANG, thereby giving you the ability to use pre stored loops with the RANG even though they are not in the unit itself. For instance, will I be able to create and use a wave file in the GR55 audio player and sync the RANG to it, I don't know but wouldn't that be a glorious thing. Probably not thru the audio player but maybe thru some connection via usb to midi converter or something. I think I feel another GR55 quest coming on ( brain farts included). The beauty of the RANG is the footprint size, simplicity ( compared to the RC300), and it's seemingly rock solid performance ( not glitchy). Maybe someone with more midi knowledge of the GR55 can pipe in and shed some light on this theory and save me the brain cramps.

[Hopkins]

Ah, I see, sorry!  The Rang is very neatly designed, I agree.  Funnily enough, creating the loops each time I play is one of my criteria - ironic then that I have ended up with the loop sampler which *does* allow storage!

Your MIDI ponderings are interesting - I look forward to hearing about your results.

[Mrchevy]

ironic then that I have ended up with the loop sampler which *does* allow storage!

It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. When it came down to the choice for me, after a GT10 and GR55, I just wasn't up for the 3rd college term of the RC300

[Hopkins]

It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. When it came down to the choice for me, after a GT10 and GR55, I just wasn't up for the 3rd college term of the RC300

Yes, I can understand that.  I have another whopper too - the Line 6 HD300.  I don't think I would go for a third either - especially since I am collecting FS-5Us to supplement the RC-300's "limited" button supply!

[fuzzfactory]

for me ableton live is the only way to go.......get a foot controller... i use the fcb1010 but will be getting the softstep soon.
i go from loop ideas to full songs pretty much without hassle.
i also need to send midi clock to the people i jam with .
plus after i get loops going i can filter / effect the loops...hit mutes....dub out etc
my new rig is a guitar case, a back pack with the gr-55, nanokontrol and a laptop....i am LOVING it!

[fuzzfactory]

oh plus you can make "dummy" midi clips that send fun midi CC's to the gr or vg and get really out there

[VariousArtist]

I haven't used the boomerang in about a month ( work), and haven't got to use it to explore it completely but this is what I think so far... It is a fantastic looper with pretty much any option you would need for LIVE looping on the fly. The pedal switches appear to be solenoid switches which make for a very light and sensitive pedal touch as opposed to the RC300 which I assume are the same as the rest of the Roland pedal switches, not bad but different. This pedal is only something I would suggest for live, on the fly performance use only. In that respect, it appears to be superior and easier to work than the RC300.
  The cons, no usb connectivity, if you need to do an update it seems to me to be a hassle but as it comes, it is fully functional and a solid performer, does what you want with NO glitches. No midi clock sync currently right now but is suppose to be in the works, word is "don't hold your breath". If you think you would EVER need to have any kind of storage capability, or the use of pre recorded beats or tracks, go for the RC300 as the RANG has none and never will. It all boils down to what you want to do with looping. Both are probably the best available right now but while both do the same thing, they each lean in different directions of looping.
  If there is something specific you would like to know about the RANG, ask and I will do my best to answer what I know. Basically, I have no regrets

Wow, I revived this post last week and wondered if there would be any response -- and came back just now to find a ton, from the original author (to whom my question was aimed at) and more.  I was very interested in your response in particular Mrchevy because I sensed that your questions and goals seemed to align with my own.

Based on all the feedback, my gut instinct is to go with the ol' RANG. 

I want portability, ease of use, something 'immediate'... allowing me to quickly setup and muck about.  Having fun but being productive at the same time.  I don't really have needs for storage or USB connectivity or effects, and although these would all be welcome they are more for bonus.

In the past I may have opted over having it all one box, including making me an espresso on the side, but I like the idea of having a very specific device that avoids many of the distractions that are not what I originally wanted (like where do I put the beans and why is this coffee tasting so bad). 

I am also drawn to the more quirky or less well known devices or brands.  I think I knew already I wanted the Rang, but like you I was fretting (pardon the pun) over what would be best for my guitar looping setup, and the Boss unit does have a lot going for it.

Cheers
Peter
http://www.petermatuchniak.com

[aliensporebomb]

And I'm still on the fence.  Just waiting a little longer.  My old rig works fine for now, I have no gigs lined up at the moment so no problem there - I'm about to go on vacation for a couple of weeks anyway.

[VariousArtist]

And I'm still on the fence.  Just waiting a little longer.  My old rig works fine for now, I have no gigs lined up at the moment so no problem there - I'm about to go on vacation for a couple of weeks anyway.

Well, since I last checked (or noticed) there seems to be a price drop at Amazon (curiously on one provider but not the others).  For under $400 it's looking a better option than before:
http://www.amazon.com/Boomerang-III-Phrase-Sampler-E-156/dp/B0035WTPL0/

Thought you might be interested, since I've not seen it that low before for a new unit.