New Strategies for Improved Live Sound - In Ear Monitors

Started by Elantric, January 23, 2008, 07:30:44 PM

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s0c9

#25
LOL - yes, my problem description is pretty generic. It's hard to impart what one hears into an intelligible and understandable description when it comes to tone.

But its right up there with you mentioning to "make sure your GK sensitivity is correctly set"  :)
What exactly does that mean... LOL.

Anyways, I'll try the mids thing.. thanks.

FWIW - The IEM route is nice but my bass player is a hold-out saying he just doesn't feel the sound with the IEM mix.
The rest of us have PL-E-N-TY bass in our mix. I also play bass and wouldn't have any issues with playing off what I'm hearing.
I'm not sure if its the bass response of phones/ears he's using. I let him try a set of mine that have awesome bass response and his reaction was somewhat "blah" to them. Doesn't do it he said. There's so-o-o much bottom end response on them that I was floored at his reaction !! OMG dood !!  How can you NOT hear that  - was my reaction ???
Says if he can't hear/feel it right, it impacts his playing - and he's a darn good bass player. So... we'll keep trying until he's comfortable. The rest of us are good with it, but we'll not buy the splitter snake nor gig with IEM's until we're ALL OK with it.

Brent Flash

#26
What is the instrumentation in your band? How many guitars, are there keys, etc.?

The reason I ask is when you are setting up your mix (this is the case when mixing anything, live or recordings) all instruments competing in the same frequency range are going to try to cover the others up. You will need to either lower them in your mix and/or EQ them differently from your guitar. Also try using your SOLO preamp when doing leads.

The bass player will need to make sure he is getting the ear piece all the way in his ear canal before he will get low end out of IEMs. Make sure he tries all the sizes so that he gets them to fit properly. Some players I work with still want the shake from low end so we put them on a stool with a BUTT KICKER or install a BUTT KICKER in the riser they stand on. There are ways to get this to work. Some will never agree to them no matter what you do. I hope this is not the case with your bass player.

TheGuitarPlayer

#27
Quote from:  s0c9 on January 24, 2010, 10:52:05 AM
But its right up there with you mentioning to "make sure your GK sensitivity is correctly set"  :)
What exactly does that mean... LOL.
Well, I would argue not really.  The manual has pretty clear instructions about correct string sensitivity.  Essentially each string should be practically peaking at the hardest level you pick in a real work scenario (i.e. the hardest you'll pick live, not the absolute hardest you can pick).

Quote from:  s0c9 on January 24, 2010, 10:52:05 AM
FWIW - The IEM route is nice but my bass player is a hold-out saying he just doesn't feel the sound with the IEM mix.
I've seen this before.  Add one or more ambience mics that captures all the stage/crowd noise and feed it into his IEM.  This solves it for most people.  Make sure this signal doesn't get fed to the main outs obviously.  Also make sure you're running a limiter to protect people's hearing.

paults

#28
If your clean patches are working, but not the distortion patches, you may want to make sure the amount of gain and/or compression in them isn't "squashing" the guitar attack (this is where the "cut through" is present).  Too much gain sounds great all by itself, but it can become a slushy mess in a band context, and it can kill your dymamic range.

If you are using modeled guitars, make sure you have the volume assigned to guitar volume, and not to patch volume.  Patch volume doesn't respond like the volume knob on your guitar - it just turns the whole patch up and down, as oppsed to changing the amount of guitar signal going into the patch.       

Rather than turning the guitar up in your mix, and as an alternate approach to adding mids, also try turning the bass player down.  Trying to compete with all that low end can also rob you of dynamics and "oomphf".





     
     

admin

#29
Ultimately  - to use IEMs effectively, I think you need a Monitor Mixer, to deliver a unique individual separate mix for each player.


This might help

http://www.jamhub.com/

http://www.jamhub.com/what/greenroom.html

QSC Touchmix

Behringer X-32



s0c9

#30
Quote from:  admsustainiac on January 25, 2010, 08:10:29 AM
Ultimately  - to use IEMs effectively, I think you need a Monitor Mixer, to deliver a unique individual separate mix for each player.


This might help

http://www.jamhub.com/

http://www.jamhub.com/what/greenroom.html

Steve... we are using a Mixwiz with 5 AUX feeds and a master... so each of us has an individual mix.

Elantric

#31
I assume with the A&H MixWiz you each get a "mono" mix?

Might want to build VG-99 Patches in Mono, and watch for possible Stereo phase cancellation, when the VG-99 patches get truncated to a Mono IEM Mix.

s0c9

#32
Yup,
mono mix.. but come to think of it - VG99 mix is going in stereo. 2 channels.. Aux feeds set to same.
Had thought that stereo patch going to mono - losing 1/2 output - might be the issue, but I don't think so.
Will also explore others suggestions of mid-range and paults suggestion on guitar volume not patch level on GK vol.

I believe my GK sensitivity levels are OK..  have low-E down to about 16 - to prevent overload. High-E is around 29/30.. rest are relatively in-between.

duffy

#33
I don't know what IEM stands for.Could you tell me?

Brent Flash

#34
Quote from:  duffy on January 26, 2010, 04:23:09 PM
I don't know what IEM stands for.Could you tell me?
In Ear Monitor

duffy

#35
Thanks Brent!

Duffy

agaskins

#36
For what it's worth, I find that when I play solo I end up doing a classic V scoop, boosted lows & highs, cut mids... but this is super thin sounding when playing with a group. Usually the highs are fine, but the mids need to be brought up a lot to cut through, and the lows cut a bit to give a bassist space.

s0c9

#37
After last nights rehearsal [we've been off for a month], I've figured out than the problem is NOT the patches. But I did figure out the issue.
Our IEM mix is configured like this...  [we're wired BTW]
We have 4 AUX sends - each going to a compressor/limiter and the master out [L/R] going to a stereo linked compressor limiter - as 5th mix. We're a 5-piece.  There are TWO 4-channel headphone amps..  1st is fed the output from the (limited) L/R main mix. The 2nd has the other 4 (limited) AUX feeds.

Apparently, some one [out of kindness] had noticed that the the main L/R went into the compressor, but the split feed [only spare cable I had was a set of double "Y" XLR's] only went into ONE of the TWO headphone amps, and thought it should go to both. So they hooked the other half of the Y cables from the limited main mix into the main inputs on the 2nd amp.

So what appears to been happening was two feeds were going to my mix.. and one was being compressed/limited slightly ahead of the other [different manufacturers, same settings]... so I had no volume or presence on the lead patches, but clean came thru fine.
Wish folks would not screw with my gear !!  :( :(

admin

#38
Thanks for the followup!

That explains everything!


rolandvg99

#39
I've been using In-ears for more than 5 years and won't even consider going back to wedges. Main reason being that I like to have the FOH sound in my monitor mix. To perform for an audience, I need to hear what the audience gets.

My guitar rig these days consists of:
BlackStar HT-20H
2 Mesa 1x12" Rectifiers
Hardwire CT-2 Tube Overdrive
Boss PW-10 Wah-wah
Roland VG 99
A couple of Boss FS5L's
Ploytec 34One II
Line 6 G30 wireless

In-ear system:
JTS Siem 101 stereo system (cheap, but suffices my needs)
Etymotic 4S ear-buds with custom molded flange.

I also use a Yamaha 01V96 for our smaller gigs.

After 9 years of straight-to-mixer, I've reverted to an amp setup. The reason: trying to get a good sound for all of the audience, including those on the 1st row. Without any back line, or wedges, all you hear from the stage is drums and some muffled distant music from the FOH.

Setting IEM levels:
Bevare! IEM can severely wreck your hearing so be careful.

Bring up the IEM just enough to get a balanced sound stage. Bass and low frequency rumble will "bleed through" somewhat anyways. All this depends on how much attenuation your IEM buds provides, but most reduce from 15 db and upwards.

Remember that music is a "team sport" not an individual competition. Exaggerated stage volumes is the No 1 reason for bad FOH sound.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

fokof

IEM on a budget;

I changed the setup of my band , we used a 01V. (the old one not the newer 01V96)
(You can get some used for around 600-800$)

I bought a MOTU 828MKIII wich has 20 inputs / 22 outputs / 8 stereo bus (mixes)
All I/O have 6 band full parametric EQ and comp/limiter
It's a digital board in a single space rack mount configuration.
You need a computer to setup but once it is OK , you just recall the preset.
The 828 only has 2 preamps , my band needed 10 , so I got a 8preamp module with a ADAT out. There is plenty of choice on the market.

I made a split isolated box with Neutrik tannies.
Got an old snake , kept the plugs , got rid of the cable and added the transformers and a 337 conector as split.

So the 828= 750$
the 8 preamp ADAT = 400$
12 I/O isolated split box = 400$

Around 1500$ and the sound is amazingly bettter than with the 01V.

I assume that no one here is wireless with the GK cable .....  :)

pod

here is a cheap IEM wired system that i'm contemplating and would do the job nicely i think ..
http://www.jumpaudio.net/index.html

ganderpe

Fender Stratocaster Eric Johnson, GK-internal,  VG-99 fw1.04, FC-300

3Play

Non-over-complicating-the-solution Alert.
I have the ultimate system for the problems being discussed:

1. Ear plugs. No batteries. No cables. No hearing loss. I always hear my vocal. The sound guy loves me because I don't need any voc monitor. The main problem with plugs is that "It just doesn't sound as good." Buck it up, get used to it. Eating food didn't feel natural initially, but you got used to it. It really helps to hear how tight (or not tight) your band is, too.

2. Tilt-back legs. Quadruple-Whammy. First, it aims the speakers AWAY from the audience. Second, it aims your amp (speakers) at your head. So you play about -9 dB quieter AND you're not pointing at the audience. And you hear yourself better. AND you hear exactly what your sound is, as opposed to jacking high end to compensate for the tweets aiming at your calfs or torso. The sound guy will actually be nice to you. But the really big win is that at a lower volume, you're not driving the acoustic anomalies of the room, so you can basically use the same EQ setting for every room.

3. Feedback at lower volume - See above #2. If you do #2, you can play at the almost the same volume in every room and get the same feedback characteristics. So what you setup during rehearsal/practice will work when you get onstage.

I know this seems too simple. But, regardless of what the musical merchandising catalogs tell you, these are not difficult problems that require lots of money to solve.



3Play

After reading my reply above, I felt I should apologize if I came off as glib or cranky. I guess my past years (20) as a live sound engineer came rushing back when addressing these subjects of stage volume and in-ear monitors. :-[ So, I apologize if I came off like an A-hole. I'm just old and have gone through this whole "I can't hear myself" thing soooo many times. :)

Unfortunately, I was rare among sound engineers in my area in that I actually cared about vocals and a great mix. Bands that played my rooms never did soundchecks after their first time in (why burn yourself out?). Usually, the second time in they'd all be thanking me for hipping them to ear plugs, tilt-back legs, taking their tuners out-of-line, and lightening up on the cymbals and snare. The singer would usually tell me that they sold their in-ear system and put the money into a really nice mic. And they sounded ten times better. To quote Robert Earl Keene, sometimes "it's the little things"

BTW, Does anybody on here use the GR-55 in a band as their only device and run it through their vocal wedge?

whippinpost91850

    After rereading this post, I went back and reread your previous one. I actually got It right away, except I realized I wasn't sure
If you were talking about ear plugs or ear monitors. I've allways had my "spks" aimed up at me(except for a craazy 4year "STACK"
  period) and that has been since 1963
   My band is trying that set up at our next practice. I used my GR55 only through the wedge the last 2 gigs. Worked great.

rolandvg99

OK, my method is neither dead cheap or dead easy, but it works extremly well for our little trio (but I can deliver up to 10 individual stereo IEM sources if required). This is what I have going:

- Yamaha 01V96 for FOH (when doing our own sound)
- MOTU 828 MKIII for IEM's
- 2 behringer ECM 8000 mics for ambient sound compressed and limited hard with the Motu
- ART S8 mic splitter (for occasions where there is an in-house PA solution and a tech)
- MacBook pro
- Airport Express for connecting iPads and iPhones for remote.
- VG99 spdif into Motu or 01V96 for IEMs
- VG99 main outs to an optional amp (using a ZT Lunchbox atm)
- VG99 sub-outs to in-house FOH
- Behringer HA 4600

Why are we using the Motu? It works both connected to Mac and as a standalone DSP mixer. If my mac or wireless network fails, it still remembers the last settings and can be operated from the front controls. Plus it has 6 band parametric EQ and compressors on all inputs and outputs. We also use wired IEMs as the sound quality is far superior to any wireless I have ever tried.

To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Elantric


teejay

Addendum to my earlier post......
I'm now in a band again. We were having terrific feedback issues trying to get the monitoring as good as I was used to with the IEM's so eventually we ditched the wedges altogether, but now I only use 1 earbud. My guitar amp is mounted atop an X-frame keyboard stand, so I can hear it properly, and we get a great feel, no vocal strain, and no feedback. It's purely vocal monitoring, but it works for us!  :)
Dont know if it'll work for anyone else, but for myself, I still think IEM's are the Mutts Nuts!!
Custom KGB headless, internal GK2a and sustainiac stealth plus. GR55 straight into PA.   Guitar out (COSM) feeding digitech VL4 vocal harmoniser.

musicman65

My band is IEM only....no wedges or sidefills. All 4 members get their own mix via aux sends on the board. A 4 channel headphone amp mixes FOH feed and aux mixes to each member. I run 100% FOH and mix from the stage. The other guys run 100% aux mix.

No ambient mics are used. We decided we would just get used to the isolated IEM feel vs ambient live feel. I actually prefer it now. We have to pop out a bud to talk to a person approaching the stage or each other.

I have maybe $100 in the whole setup.

bd