SY-300 - Boss SY300 & GP10

Started by Brak(E)man, September 26, 2015, 09:40:26 AM

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Vincent

A little correction; the joined image contains an 'error' because at first I set both midi channels on CC#01.
I changed that to CC#16 in order to being able to attach CC#01 to switch 1, CC#02 to switch 2 and so on.
Thus, CC#08 is attached to switch 8, and not CC#07.

gumtown

QuoteAbout the CC#00 thing; I read somewhere (internet without a doubt) that some devices don't quite know how to handle the CC#00 send by the G-system as a 'header' of all it's MIDI frames.

cc#00 and cc#32 are not good ones to use as many midi devices use these as control change for midi patch bank switching,
including most Roland/Boss gear.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/


Vincent

#28
Thanks a lot for trying to help me out, I appreciate it.

I've launched a simillar post on the TC-electronics forum btw, I figure throwing two lines might bring up more fish.

So I came up with some images to illustrate my problem.
Let's say (to keep things as simple as possible) I managed to assign 4 FX-blocks on the SY-300 to be controlled with 4 switches on the G-System. The patch-changing part works fine.

Regardless to the CC-channels I used this gives me something like this:


The next two pictures show the interaction between pushing one of the switches on the G-system and the desired and correctly functioning activation of the assigned FX-block on the SY-300.
This part works fine. All of the switches on the G-system are on 'toggle', same for the SY-300 MIDI assignment:



Vincent

#29
So, as you might have noticed things work out just fine, I can use the G-System footswitches to control the FX-blocks of the SY-300.

Here's where things get nasty >:(...

Next thing I'm switching over to another preset patch and than back to the preset I'm writing about...well just take a look at the picture, some of the effects are 'ON', even if I saved them (WRITE on SY-300) as being OFF, and so to put them 'OFF' I must switch them to 'ON' on the G-system.
This makes the whole thing pretty senseless ofcourse.

Voilà, now you know the exact nature of my problem...does anybody know what can be the reason for this behaviour?

Thanks in advance,
Vincent

Brak(E)man

Does this happen if you switch patches
1 without pressing anything on the Gsystem
2 without Gsystem plugged in
3 without Bts plugged in
4 without USB cable plugged in
5 With nothing plugged in
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Vincent

Thanks for your reply (once more) Brakeman.

It happens only when switching patches using the G-system.

If I use the SY-300 patch-UP and down switches the preset pops up the way I memorised it.

If I use the PC to switch patches (Tone Studio) the preset comes up the right way aswell.

I don't know exactly what you mean by 'without Bts plugged in', I'm sorry.

I also tried the whole switching procedure without the Pc on, both USB cables disconnected etc.; the problem remains the same.

This is why I think the G-System might send some 'extra' information which disturbs the SY-300.
I also remark on the fact that for some reason, when switching to a patch, it sometimes comes up 'correctly', or comes up correctly but with a little 'all effect on' sort of sound while switching...

So, answering your questions :

Does this happen if you switch patches
1 without pressing anything on the Gsystem - NO
2 without Gsystem plugged in - NO
3 without Bts plugged in - ?
4 without USB cable plugged in - YES (using the G-system to switch patches)
5 With nothing plugged in - Yes (letting the MIDI cable between teh G-System and the SY-300 ofcourse but without the USB cables/PC)

Thanks,
Vincent

Elantric

#32
QuoteSince I haven't figured out how to insert pictures


Read the Forum FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=23.0


How to post pics
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4823.0


Typically Boss MFX provide  an "Assign hold" parameter that could help - but on SY-300 there is only an "Expression pedal Assign Hold"  - that wont help you.

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/SY-300_ParamGuide_e02.pdf

Brak(E)man

#33
With bts I meant boss tone studio.

And when you switch patches with the SY
It's ok with all cables in ??

Ifso Record in your daw what the Gsystem sends
System exclusive and midi
send that to SY and see what happens

I've used a lot of TCs stuff but not G-system
My best guess is that it's sending some sort of snapshot
or as you said , some extra info

It states in the manual that on program change it also sends MSB
, it could be the issue , I'm not sure.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

So why not change patches on SY and use Gsystem to turn FX etc on and off ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Vincent

Well I can actually monitor the MIDI send by the G-System (using the Vyzor soft), but that doesn't get me much further.

I use the CC#16 as MIDI channel, this seems to work to change patches using the G-system.
I tuned the RX channel of the SY-300 to this channel CC#16 aswell ofcourse.

Then I used CC#13 for the SY-300 RX channel, just to make sure it doesn't try to send anything to the G-System.
I tried putting the 'MIDI program map in' on the G-System to 'on' and 'off' which doesn't change anything.

As you may notice in the joined image I assigned the FX-Blocks (1 to 4) to the footswitches of the G-System as described before.

Switch 8 - MIDI CC#8 - Toggle - SY-300 Source Number CC#8 - FX1 - ON/OFF - Toggle

and so on for switches 9,10 and 11.

As I already stated it works correctly IF I STAY PLAYING IN THE PATCH. 
As soon as I change patches and come back to this patch the FX-blocks seem to have chosen to be either 'on' or 'off' for no particular reason.

I hope I'm not being to tyring here...

Brak(E)man

As I understand it the problem occurs when you are using patch change with the Gsystem
and only then.
So to avoid that change patch on the SY instead with controllers up down
and use Gsystem for th fx

You're now using program change on the Gsystem ? Right ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Vincent

Brakeman you're absolutely correct.

The whole idea is (already said I'm stubborn?  ;D) being able to control the entire set using the G-system.
This way I'd never have to touch anything else (the goal is using the set for some gigs) BUT the G-system to swim around in my presets.
The worst part is that it almost works, I can feel I'm pretty darn close to the key here...

Brak(E)man

I beleive this might be the issue
and Ifso I'm not sure how you'd
get around that.

Quote
It states in the manual that on program change it also sends MSB
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Vincent

Right on the nail, I read that too:

"Program changes are sent on MIDI out when presets
are recalled. Adjacent to the sent program change, an
MSB value is also sent. The MSB (Most Significant
Bit=Ctrl#0) followed by a valued is used to select a
preset bank on the receiving MIDI device. Note that not
all MIDI devices are designed to read the MSB.
G-System has 300 preset locations. 100 factory presets
and 200 user preset locations."


So just maybe the SY-300 isn't designed to receive this kind of MSB information.
"not all MIDI devices are designed to read the MSB"; don't remeber where I lifted this from, it's sitting in my notebook.

Somehow this all lead me all the way here:

http://www.midisolutions.com/progtool.htm

My guess is that this software is supposed to 'filter' the information we don't want to slip through...I need to think this all over once more  :P!!

The fact is that I don't know how to 'eliminate' the MSB...but I ain't giving up yet!!

Vincent


Brak(E)man

I'm too lazy to use any midi FC even though I have a few.  :)
I'd just stomp on the SY  ::)
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Vincent

You know what ?  You're absolutely right  ;)!!
Stomping the sy -300 directly is where this story might end...if only I was less hard headed ! !

Anyhow I tried a 'new' trick tonight (it's half pas eight here).
I programmed 2 switches on the g-system to do patch up and down on the sy-300.

All this using midi. I assigned a channel for up and another for down.
Now when I leave and turn back to the patch the problem doesn't occur,  everything pops up exactly the way I saved it.

Normally,  using the bank up & down and the 1 to 5 preset switches those are not 'real' midi switches but just make the g-system send a program change message to the outside world.

This leads us back to what you remarked on Brakeman,  about the smb midi message.

Anyway i'd like to thank you for your friendly help;should we be closer i'd invite you for a beer and some playing at the house ! 

Vincent

#43
Now I would like to know how to transfer midi messages from the g-system to the gp10...I realise it's not as simple as it might sound.
I need an alternative because I can't find a Proservia MIDX-10 (out of production) and the raspberry pi seems pretty complicated to adapt/program.

I also read on the forum that the Kenton Midi usb host will probably not work (though I don't understand why since it's supposed to be just the device i'd need ???)

So where do I go from here ?

Please bare in mind that  I only want the gp10 to 'obey' to midi messages coming from the g-system,  and nothing else, which might simplify my demand.

gumtown

#44
The PRIMOVA MIDX-20 is the MIDX-10 replacement
http://www.primovasound.com/midx_20.html

Here is a thread devoted to setting up the Raspberry Pi (RPI) to use with the GP-10, with a couple of step by step tutorials on how to, and a pre-configured RPI file to download and install to a RPI with everything all setup to go.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11998.0
For the RPI all you need is a USB mouse and keyboard, and an HDMI monitor, and the RPI runs just like a regular computer with both a command line text and/or graphical user interface.
Once setup, you don't need the mouse/keyboard/monitor any more.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Vincent

Thans a lot for the helping hand Gumtown (and Elantric, Brakeman & Codesmart and the others)...
I seem to have maneged the G-System <> SY-300 link up with the patch changes AND the SY-300 effect control working correctly.
The solution was choosing 'System' or 'Patch' and then playing with the target assignments.
I also set the Midi channels correctly.
to be totally honest I don' know exactly at what point I got things on the road since I spend a lot of time changing all kinds of parameters.
I also remarked that the RISE and FALL times must be on '1' because leaving them at '0' requires some sort of 'double toggling' to change values using the G-System.

Let me join my MIDI settings here, I owe you at least that much  ;).

Thanks Codesmart, I received your mail and things are getting clear. It's just that the MIDX-10 seemed to match my demand to the detail (normal, you designed them for the GP-10) which makes me hesitate on the MIDX-20.

The Raspberry seems like a good solution but would need some studying first.

Vincent

OK I'm replying to my own message here  :o

If I get myself a Raspberry PI 3 Model B 4 cores 1.2 GHz with 1 Gà of RAM that would 'automaticcally' work?
I can just plug it in, plug in the different devices (with a MIDI to USB cable to link the Midi from the MIDI-THRU port of the SY-300), or is there some sort of programming to be done?
Is that where the HDMI port is for, to connect a monitor? and a keyboard/mouse on two of the USB ports?

admin

#47
Read the threads that go into details on using RPI as 5pin MIDI I/O adapter for GP-10

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11998.0

Since the G system (and SY-300) already has 5 pin MIDI , either PrimovaSound MIDX-10 or MIDX-20 will work as well

loulea

Quote from: Vincent on January 24, 2017, 07:26:23 AM
OK I'm replying to my own message here  :o

If I get myself a Raspberry PI 3 Model B 4 cores 1.2 GHz with 1 Gà of RAM that would 'automaticcally' work?
I can just plug it in, plug in the different devices (with a MIDI to USB cable to link the Midi from the MIDI-THRU port of the SY-300), or is there some sort of programming to be done?
Is that where the HDMI port is for, to connect a monitor? and a keyboard/mouse on two of the USB ports?

Hi Vincent,
It won't work right away with just buying the RPI and connecting your instruments. You need to load the Raspian OS and configure the JackCtl utility (ALSA Jack Audio) to connect your MIDI devices. If you want to run headless (without a keyboard and mouse) you need to configure the OS to come up running with the JackCtl software. I don't have a RPI3 image yet but plan to have one in the next week. I have a RPI3. The update from RPI2 to  RPI3 requires a full load of Raspian Jessie and reconfigured for this application. You cannot just do an update since the kernel is different. I have tried.

I replied to your PM asking for help and will work with you to get you going.

Loulea
Music is in everyone!!

Vincent

Thanks Loulea,

It's a real pleasure and privilige being on this forum. I can't believe you guys taking the time answering me like this; I hope I might be helpfull myself in return one of these days  !!
Vincent