GR-55 exp pedal weirdness?

Started by Cricket, July 14, 2012, 12:19:51 PM

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Elantric

QuoteCertain patches will start full volume making it rather embarrassing on stage in a church when you suddenly have a full volume "GR-55 Fart".
People assume you are messing up and after hours of practice that's not the result you are looking for

I never use the GR-55 without a separate volume pedal

GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0


* Buy a Stereo Volume Pedal, like the Roland FV-50L (50K pots or less)  and connect to GR-55 Output. GR-55 Patches jump around in Volume, and Expression pedal is often mapped to control other effects on MANY GR-55 Patches



Bluemusic

Forgive this if it is stupid...long day and brain is fried.  So in the case of putting this volume pedal after the GR-55 I would then change the expression pedal to NEVER control volume?  Because if not I would think it would still be subject to the volume coming in...Right?

Elantric

Correct -

I use the GR-55 expression pedal to Morph from Rhythm (heel down) to Lead (middle) to Synth (toe down) tones in the same patch

As shown here:

* GR-55 Ultimate Multi Control patches (solves the GR-55 long Patch change delay (with mute) issue)
Jim Williams Multiple Assignment Pathes.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5647.msg38806#msg38806
Learn multi-assignments by following all steps outlined here - then edit to suit YOUR needs.

Guitarplayer_10's  GR-55 Ultimate Multi Control patch step by step
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7267.msg50612#msg50612



Then since the GR-55's Expression Pedal is assigned to other tasks  - I use the separate Roland FV50-L stereo Volume after the GR55 output jacks for all GR-55 Volume control.

Bluemusic

Thanks...Shouldn't have to add another pedal but if that's what it takes so be it.  I'll send the bill to Roland and wait by my mailbox for their check..

gumtown

Quote from: Bluemusic on February 13, 2014, 07:57:14 PM
Thanks...Shouldn't have to add another pedal but if that's what it takes so be it.  I'll send the bill to Roland and wait by my mailbox for their check..
You will be waiting for a letter that will never come.



The GR-55 would be much more useful if it had 4 x patch pedal, 2 x bank pedals, 2 x CTL pedals and 2 x EXP pedals all built in,
with more in depth flexibiltiy in assigning the pedals.



Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Bluemusic

That would be great...but...then only half of those would work so....

Cricket

Quote from: Bluemusic on May 31, 1974, 04:32:30 AMCertain patches will start full volume making it rather embarrassing on stage in a church when you suddenly have a full volume "GR-55 Fart".
People assume you are messing up and after hours of practice that's not the result you are looking for.
Kudos to them for getting some great sounds but c'mon guys...the hardware has to work reliably and not embarrass your customer.
Fix it.

@Bluemusic

I had that same issue when I started this thread and, after some soul-searching, here is what fixed it:

First, you want ASSIGN HOLD on.

Second,  it's super-important to make sure you do not have two controls set to either patch volume or tone volume.  If you do, the 55 will default to the higher level when you select the patch.   This can make it seem as if ASSIGN HLD is not working, even though it is switched on.

For a while, I almost always assigned EXP to patch volume and GK Vol to tone volume.   However, I changed my mind and reversed this since having tone volume on EXP leaves the "tail" on the reverb/delay when I do volume swells etc.

Now, I go with EXP = tone volume, GK Vol = patch volume whenever possible.

Just something to be aware of.   I drove myself a little crazy trying to figure out why I had weird volume jumps happening at one point and this particular assign conflict was the issue.

Btw, the symptom of this conflict is: you select a patch and it comes on full volume, but if you rock the pedal back and forth once (or turn the GK Vol up and down once) the patch then behaves as expected.

My 55 works fine without use of additional volume pedals, though that too could be useful.  Using a volume pedal per Elantric's suggestion makes sense, however, be aware that the pedal would function as "patch volume."  You might still want to use EXP as "tone volume" to have the volume control before the AMP/FX.  The "tone volume" setting also makes the COSM models sound more realistic and responsive, I think, similar to turning down your regular mag volume.

In the interest of full disclosure, there are certain circumstances where you might... might... be able to get away with setting two controls to "tone volume."  However, be aware that this might cause problems later.  I wouldn't recommend doing this if there's another way to get what you're after.

Hang in there.   You can probably get the 55 working to your satisfaction without a lot of add'l gear.  2 cents deposited.

Toby Krebs

For most of my patches I have -normal pickups vol. controlled by the pots on my guitar/Exp pedal vol controls the volume of either PCM1 or PCM2/GK vol. controls PCM1 or PCM2(piano set to Exp. pedal-strings set to GK vol). I rarely use the COSM pickup tones anymore unless it's an acoustic or 12 string electric. I have found setting the Exp. pedal to control patch volume a major PITA! I just try to level patch volumes across the board and go from their.I already have to have a separate wah pedal and the ever present Talk Box so adding a volume pedal wont work for me. Too much crap to carry already. I did try it though at one point but if your patches are not somewhat leveled you are pretty screwed even with a volume pedal before the amp.
You have to level things out first. Use a loud lead tone as a reference and test things through a FRFR setup LOUD!!!

Good Luck!

Bluemusic

That's good stuff guys.  I have always set both my Exp pedal and GK Vol to control patch volume so I will try that and then double check (though I am pretty careful on this) that nothing else is set to control Patch volume.  Also if I am not using the Exp ON I have that as patch volume too so I don't worry when I switch to a patch that somehow defaults to the Exp ON.  Would the Exp ON and OFF set to patch volume cause an issue?
I don't use the GTR OUT as I just cant handle the noise it creates.  I hear there is a way to Mod the unit to fix it but I am leery to do surgery on it, therefore I am losing the regular guitar pickups through the unit...different issue that I will someday attack.

So I expect I will use the pedal for volume just based on my experience.  What would you guys suggest for the GK knob to get the most use from it?

Anyway this will be some good things to try to see if it works for me.  I will report back soon.

Cricket

#34
Quote from: Bluemusic on February 17, 2014, 07:24:03 PM
That's good stuff guys.  I have always set both my Exp pedal and GK Vol to control patch volume so I will try that and then double check (though I am pretty careful on this) that nothing else is set to control Patch volume.

Just in case I was unclear... two patch volume controls will give you weird volume jumps.  I suggest only use one controller for this function (unless you go the external volume pedal route).  In that case, you don't need "patch volume" at all.

Quote from: Bluemusic on February 17, 2014, 07:24:03 PMAlso if I am not using the Exp ON I have that as patch volume too so I don't worry when I switch to a patch that somehow defaults to the Exp ON.  Would the Exp ON and OFF set to patch volume cause an issue?

This should work, as EXP and EXP ON are not active simultaneously.   

On the other hand, no user patch should "default" to EXP ON if you don't want that.  If you save a patch with EXP ON it will recall that way.  If you don't want that, save the patch with it off.
 
Quote from: Bluemusic on February 17, 2014, 07:24:03 PMSo I expect I will use the pedal for volume just based on my experience.  What would you guys suggest for the GK knob to get the most use from it?

As I said, for the most part, I set GK Vol to "patch volume" and EXP to "tone volume."  My reasoning is: patch volume is something I change less often... just a quick tweak now and then.   Also, "patch volume" functions as if you had your volume pedal last in the chain and, for example, if you do a volume swell, you lose the echoes when you back the pedal off again.

"Tone volume" is like having your volume pedal first in the chain, which is what I do with my regular pedals, and what I like.  That way, if I do a swell, or just plain turn down, I'm not losing the echoes as well.  This is much more useful (to me) and so I have this function on EXP.  Since I use this control pretty constantly, I use the pedal for it, where "patch volume" I only adjust occasionally.

Also, the "tone volume" setting really can bring out the best in the COSM modeling.   For example, if you turn down the modeled guitar using tone volume, your amp model will also clean up very similar to how an analog rig would.  I just think overall you get more out of "tone volume" here.

So, to sum up, my preferences are EXP = tone volume, GK Vol = patch volume.   

I don't do this in every patch, of course.  Sometimes I need something else.   As a starting point, though, this works for me for what I do.  YMMV.

Quote from: Bluemusic on February 17, 2014, 07:24:03 PMAnyway this will be some good things to try to see if it works for me.

That's half the fun.  Good luck with it.  ;D

Bluemusic

Good Info.  I have not tried it yet as I am still in recovery mode from the weekend. I have both situations that arise depending on if I am playing at church or at a bar.  Bar I set up like you have yours with my volume pedal first and am still using my pedalboard and amp primarily...  Church seems to have a lot of volume changing happening and sometimes quickly so I have been using the Exp pedal.  I am going to mess with it and see which way is more natural.  I have a feeling that once I get the volume jumps under control and have a better handle on my patch volumes I will feel more confident in grabbing the GK knob in sufficient time.  As it is I am always on edge waiting to have to make that quick adjustment due to the GR or the situation.
This should bring a lot of sanity to my GR world.  Thanks.   

Bluemusic

Well Crap!  That wasn't it.  I went into the patch that was giving me the most issues and the GK Knob was set to Tone Volume.  That means the only thing that is Patch Volume is the Exp Pedal.  ARGGHH!  I thought we had it whipped.  As it stands, I am back to square one..no solution to the infamous GR55 Public Fart!  What do you guys think?  It is so frustrating to have this tool available and then be unable to use it without serious issues/embarassment.
On a similar note I checked this GK knob assignment with the FE because when I pulled it up on the unit itself it just said *SYSTEM* and I couldn't make any changes to it...not sure if that sounds right to you guys or if that is another clue. 

Elantric

#37
QuoteOn a similar note I checked this GK knob assignment with the FE when I pulled it up on the unit itself it just said *SYSTEM* and I couldn't make any changes to it..

This indicates you have GK knob assignment set in the SYSTEM/GLOBAL Area for all patches - that could spell trouble.

Bluemusic

OK..I may have gotten somewhere...Hold on to your hats...I had to go deeper than the patch itself and go into the SYSTEM GK Settings and change the GK VOL to Tone Volume.  It seems like it works...I'll have to try it out on a few before I can give it the final OK but we may be onto something.

Why must you make it so hard ROLAND?  Maybe you think that's part of the fun?...Let me clear it up for you-  It is not...just in case...you maybe thought...it was.

You'll hear from me if it's not fixed.  If it is I may go onto the subject of making my Guitar Out usable.  No ROLAND..that's not fun either.

Elantric

#39
I agree - there are many "built in hurdles" with the GR-55, luckily we have many other GR-55 users here who have tackled most of them and have posted their solutions and workarounds.
GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0
I blame lazy factory GR-55 presets that focus on avoiding use of the normal guitar pickups on 99% of the factory presets, and the requirement for newbies to download old Roland Owners manuals (these are important reads: Roland GI-20, VG-99, GR-33, VG-8, VG-88) and explore three prior VG/GR generations of older Roland gear just to understand how many GR-55 functions could possibly work.     

Cricket

Quote from: Bluemusic on February 18, 2014, 01:42:24 PMOn a similar note I checked this GK knob assignment with the FE because when I pulled it up on the unit itself it just said *SYSTEM* and I couldn't make any changes to it...not sure if that sounds right to you guys or if that is another clue.

I strongly recommend you check all your SYSTEM settings.   IMO, you want almost all of them to be "patch setting."  Then, you can assign their functions patch by patch in MASTER.   For this, you can use the MASTER - Pedal/GK CTL menu for basic settings, or the ASSIGN menu for deeper ones.

SYSTEM settings are global... they affect every patch, and you don't have to save these for them to take effect.  You probably don't want to use these.  For example, if you set EXP to patch volume in SYSTEM, you can never use it for anything else.   You're committed, yanno?

The only SYSTEM settings I use are S1/S2 for bank inc/dec.  Some folks don't use any SYSTEM settings at all.

Bluemusic

Ok Good to know...so I should then put all to PATCH SETTING (with the exception of GK1 GK2, which in turns allows me to assign each of the functions within the patch.  Makes sense...had no idea I was completely committed on the SYSTEM deal...makes sense now.  It seems like ROLAND should have known that the GK Volume and the Exp Pedal set to Patch Volume would cause this issue.  Oh well it's amazing how easy it is to forgive once the frustration subsides.
Elantric, I agree...I definitely feel like I am stepping into the middle of a discussion with the GR55 being my first guitar synth.  Undoubtedly the VG-99 and prior users have some things figured out...Gotta start somewhere so I am jumping in..we'll see how it all ends.
Thanks guys.

Cricket

Quote from: Bluemusic on February 18, 2014, 08:39:04 PM
Ok Good to know...so I should then put all to PATCH SETTING (with the exception of GK1 GK2, which in turns allows me to assign each of the functions within the patch.  Makes sense...had no idea I was completely committed on the SYSTEM deal...makes sense now.  It seems like ROLAND should have known that the GK Volume and the Exp Pedal set to Patch Volume would cause this issue.  Oh well it's amazing how easy it is to forgive once the frustration subsides.
Elantric, I agree...I definitely feel like I am stepping into the middle of a discussion with the GR55 being my first guitar synth.  Undoubtedly the VG-99 and prior users have some things figured out...Gotta start somewhere so I am jumping in..we'll see how it all ends.
Thanks guys.

Well, I would say the issue with assign conflicts is just a consequence of the flexibility of the 55.  It allows you to assign all these parameters, even though some assign choices are unwise.  So, for example, if you have two controls set to patch volume, it doesn't quite know what to do, so it defaults to the higher level.

I would imagine if it defaulted to the lower level this would still cause issues, just for different situations.

Don't get me wrong now... there are multiple issues with the 55, areas where Roland totally missed the mark, largely through being completely tone-deaf to the people who actually buy and use their products

On the other hand, and I know I'm not the only one who will say this: I really, really like my 55.   I think it was money well-spent on a decent (not perfect) product.  I get a big ol' grin playing it and it does pretty much everything I ask it to do.  The issues you are currently having will go away.  The learning curve is steep but not insurmountable.

As far as settings go, you might try my suggestions as a starting point.  Ultimately, the decision is yours, based on what you want to do with the 55 and what suits your personal preferences.  I hate... (I'm using the word "hate" here  ;D) using the footswitches to select banks and patches so I don't do that.  Other folks would rather use S1/S2 another way... it's a personal call.

Even so, once you figure out how to program it, and what exactly you want to do with it, I think you'll enjoy it.  RTFM, read the Top Things To Know, search the forum, ask questions... you'll get there.

It pains me to admit it, but I've found that 99% of the time, the software that's glitching is the two pounds of it I keep between my ears.  ;D  Most of the time, the gear is doing exactly what I told it to do.  The problem is I told it to give me a tuna fish sandwich when what I wanted was a cheeseburger.

Good luck and happy tweaking.


Bluemusic

I suppose you're right...It has to choose one or the other.  I definitely am starting to enjoy it more now that I understand the issue.  And in fact it gives me some flexibility that, once learned, I am sure I will appreciate.
Thanks for taking the time to help me through it.  I'll be experimenting with how to set each assignment...I am sure I will try a few different things before I settle into my groove.  Thanks again.

Fusion

I find at times I have to cycle voices on and off and the switch toggles a few times to make sure things are doing what they are supposed to. Sometimes things seem to get locked up during programming. You alo have to watch the graphic editor, it is easy to move off the slot where you are working and accidentally write over the wrong slot or it changes during your edit and you end up messing with the wrong patch.
My only issue with the 55 is minor. I had a GR33 and several of the cool voices it had are not on the 55 and I am wondering if I can MIDI in and pull them to the 55??
Issue for me is so many hard coded factory patches that you cannot overwrite. I could have done with a whole lot less factory patches and maybe some more voices to use like the ones from the GR33 for example. I have a Tech21 PSA 1.1 Preamp which they allow you as an option to write over the factory examples and recall a factory reset if you want later on, a very, very cool option indeed.
For the most part the 55 is winner in my book. At first one is not sure if it is worth the money but in a few weeks after you get the programming figured out, yeah, it is a great tool and a infinite source of ideas and possibilities for the evolved musician.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

shawnb

Quote from: Cricket on February 19, 2014, 05:09:06 AM
On the other hand, and I know I'm not the only one who will say this: I really, really like my 55.   I think it was money well-spent on a decent (not perfect) product.  I get a big ol' grin playing it and it does pretty much everything I ask it to do.  The issues you are currently having will go away.  The learning curve is steep but not insurmountable.

Even so, once you figure out how to program it, and what exactly you want to do with it, I think you'll enjoy it.  RTFM, read the Top Things To Know, search the forum, ask questions... you'll get there.

It pains me to admit it, but I've found that 99% of the time, the software that's glitching is the two pounds of it I keep between my ears.  ;D  Most of the time, the gear is doing exactly what I told it to do.  The problem is I told it to give me a tuna fish sandwich when what I wanted was a cheeseburger.

Good luck and happy tweaking.

Great post, Cricket!
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Fusion

#46
Nothing is "perfect" much less guitar players in general so the perfect piece of gear is a snipe hunt.
The 55 does the deal and in about 3 weeks I have gone from being bewildered to demystified in programming it. The fun starts when you can start creating patch ideas outside the canned samples which pretty much blow as they do in so many units.
Would someone chummy with Roland ask them why the factory stuff has to be so many and hard set, some makers like Tech21 offer you an option to overwrite factory slots and reset the factory settings if you want later on. Pretty insightful. Lots of space and memory in the USER section to be sure but all those factory patches are just sitting in there doing nothing.
Also why did they lose so many cool voices on the GR33? I have some killer patches on my GR33 and I am trying to figure out if one can MIDI them together and how that is possible.
I do not recommend the whole guitar synth thing to a neophyte player, this is an advanced tool and the more you are able to study it and learn how to use it the more expansive it becomes. This is not a plug and sound like box as I think many are approaching it. COSM is nice but this is a synth and does such wondrous things beyond the std guitar thing. I see so many guitar COSM patches sounding like so and so and I think many are missing the point of having a "synthesizer".
There are a bunch of other units that provide that outlet and probably better than the GR55 was designed. I think the COSM is a supplement to the PCM ability not really a core performance segment. 

I sort of gave up worrying about using a 2nd synth model w the 55 the difference between was vast. Loving the 55 capability, maybe a RP10 down the road. Love to have one of those synth ready guitars, money, money, money.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

Beynon5

This may not come under the same sort of problems others have been having - but

I'm having a weirdness with my exp pedal too - it will just randomly turn on and off during my gig.

For most of my live work I have a patch for dirty and the exp is set to only be a wah when I turn it on - when exp is off the pedal does nothing - same for my clean and same for all the other patches I use, still the same problem.

So I've been through all of the calibration and set the threshold of the button so that I have to really press hard to get it to come on - I even leave it with the pedal all the way off so that it cant be that its "accidentally" triggered by me.

But still it will just randomly turn on and theres no pattern to it either, its not like related to anything else as far as I can see - I get the same problem on carpet or solid floor.

Anyone got any suggestions as to what to try its driving me mad?

I work in a music shop too and I'm not a complete dummy to it all - I've also tried Roland UKs tech support to which I got told factory reset and reload every thing (done this twice now!).

Elantric

It's common for a control Assignments to get clobbered or null other functions out

Upload your problem GR-55 patches for others to test

We prefer you employ  Gumtowns Floorboard Editor

Beynon5

I use the editor to make the patches already.

I know its not the assignments as the patches were working fine for a very long time - its only a recent issue. My problem is that the GR is my main gigging set up so I dont have the time to be without it currently!

I was hoping it may be a simple bug that could be sorted! If not its back to Roland and I'll use my second board and not use the synth for a few gigs :)

I'll upload the patches later today and hopefully it will help :)