GR-55 - Some notes on GR-55 glitches...

Started by shawnb, August 27, 2012, 10:44:57 PM

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stratrat

The system is not perfect and can take a lot of experimentation to dial in properly. On top of all that, a lot of it is down to playing technique.

A trick I used to use with my old (even slower) 25-pin gear was to use a high-strung guitar (wound strings tuned an octave up) and then transpose patches on those strings down to normal octave.  Worked pretty well, but means that you aren't getting a normal tuned guitar from your normal pickups. The GR-55 unfortunately does not let you tune on a per string basis, so you can't even do that anymore.

Thanatos

Thank you Bryanz,
the pitch lowering sounds like a idea worth to try eventhough I will miss the higher string...I have also GP 10 and the situation with missing notes or a rhytmic shift during bass faster licks is not presented. It is a bit strange for me that 3y older unit has so worse computing limitation.
My plan is to experiment with FTP which should arrive this week. I am very curious how the tracking problems and all the glitching, ghost notes etc. Fishman engineers managed to solve.

Thomas

Thanatos

Guys,
just one stupid question: is it possible to use fishman triple play as controler and GR 55 as sound module?

Thank you

Thomas

Elantric

No - because the GR-55 does not respond to MIDI note on / off messages

But you can use the older GR-30 / GR-33 as a MIDI tone module


Chris71

Quote from: shawnb on September 03, 2012, 10:34:23 PM
I have confirmed that the CC67 'soft pedal' controllers reflect the GR-55's Nuance settings on the MIDI bus. 

The GR-55's 'Nuance' setting reflects soft playing style, e.g., finger picking vs. using a pick.   Higher values reflect 'nuanced' (slow) attack and lower values reflect a picked (fast) attack. 

In the MIDI spec for the soft pedal controller, 0-63 is off & 64-127 is on.   I.e., the higher values should reflect a softer tone, just as 'higher' nuance values reflect a softer playing style.  So the CC67s actually make sense as they operate. 

Note that these are on the MIDI bus whether or not the Nuance setting is on for your PCM tone (again, PCM settings don't have a bearing on what is on the MIDI bus - you could have one off & one on, what would it do?).

Hi All,

My first post on the forum.

So sending the GR55 CC67 on full value will ease the glitching?

Have had the GR55 for a few years, and have only really started to use it in recent times beyond entertainment value. My Ghost equipped RG needed a lot of work and was buried under some other projects.

The low E and A string glitching is terrible, and I'm trawling through the vast resources here to try and improve this thing's performance (it's a great place, but a jungle...... ;D)

My intention is to rack mount the unit and use external MIDI control (Mastermind GT22), so I can send the unit pretty comprehensive MIDI information if need be.

This "speed enhancement/improvement" thing, I'm guessing is hardware, not firmware/software?

Cheers

Chris.

gumbo

...when contemplating a 'rack-mount' of a GR-55, I have helped a number of people by providing the equivalent of a 13-pin cable extension...this is simply a Synth-Linx Jack with a length of cable, attached at the other end of the cable is cut-down version of a 13-pin jackplug, which is then left permanently plugged into the back of the GR-55.

The Synth-Linx Jack can then be conveniently attached to the front of the rack unit, to make plugging in instruments a lot easier.

THERE IS ONE IMPORTANT POINT TO CONSIDER when thinking about designing such an installation, and that is:

YOU STILL HAVE TO BUILD-IN THE ABILITY TO ACCESS THE 'POWER ON' BUTTON ON THE BACK OF THE GR-55....leaving it 'turned on' and shutting the power on or off at the wall socket or power board DOES NOT allow the GR-55 to boot up.....

...just like to tell folks that, fairly early-on in their rack design process... ;)

HTH

Peter
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Chris71

G'Day Peter,

You're from SA? I'm in the Hunter Valley NSW.

The GR will be on a sliding shelf, so easy to switch on. The rig is going into a 39RU fixed rack system (too big for a fly-rig, you think? ;D), so an appropriate custom interface will be used with 13-Pin I/O included. So I'll loom a 13 pin setup to the GR. I won't need to access the GR-55 all the time. I have some serious horsepower from Lexicion, Eventide and Korg etc. in the rack - I'm more into traditional rack guitar sounds. The GR is more for a "strange" preamp signals.

The GR outputs will go into the first stage of a stereo dual line mixer, so I can apply the other affects post and in parallel with it's signal. The mag guitar and piezo setup I'm using independently of the 13-pin at the moment, but if there was some way I could mod the '55 to output a TRS from the "guitar out" with the Mag and piezo on tip and ring............intending to use an RJM Y-Not to rout the mag and piezo to different places.

But enough of that midwarp - really I'm here to try and improve the GR-55 glitching issue. Entertaining building that Joness "rumble filter" deal into the interface between the 13-Pin I/O.

What are the other tricks? It's a great unit - shame Roland won't adress the glitching problem.

Cheers

Chris.

gumbo

Hi Chris,

Hunter Valley is Nice !!  ;)  We are about 50 rural k's north of ADL...also nice... :)

What guitar / pickup combination are you using to trigger this?  Some 'glitch' more than others..

Peter
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Chris71

Quote from: gumbo on July 05, 2018, 04:24:45 PM
Hi Chris,

Hunter Valley is Nice !!  ;)  We are about 50 rural k's north of ADL...also nice... :)

What guitar / pickup combination are you using to trigger this?  Some 'glitch' more than others..

Peter

Ghost Hex and Acoustiphonic.....

gumbo

Hmm...
...not the best combination for good results out of a GR-55.

If you know anyone who has a guitar with a GK3 in it and can try it with your GR-55, have a go and see the difference.

Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

admin

#36
Quote from: Chris71 on July 05, 2018, 11:26:38 PM
GR-55 - Some notes on GR-55 glitches...  with Ghost Hex and Acoustiphonic.....


Exactly the reason why there exists the RMC subsonic filter  - to hep improve piezo hex PU tracking errors


What is a subsonic filter for GK 13 pin processor used for?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17667.0

Quote..not the best combination for good results out of a GR-55.

Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=573.0

Chris71

Quote from: gumbo on July 06, 2018, 05:32:28 AM
Hmm...
...not the best combination for good results out of a GR-55.

If you know anyone who has a guitar with a GK3 in it and can try it with your GR-55, have a go and see the difference.

Hi Peter,

Find the Ghost system an enigma. Sometimes I'm almost happy with it, sometimes want to introduce it to a ball hammer. Went with the setup with the stereo 1/4" output jack, so could still use the guitar normally in mono, or split it piezo-acoustic/electric.

But recently getting this intermittent "swooshing sound" like a scratchy pot (or an actual Ghost :D).

It can go for an hour with doing it. Yes, checked the pots, the switches, the Molex connectors etc. but the guitar being a scratch-plate style makes it a biatch to fault find. It I run it 13-pin into the GR55, and at the same time whether or not I output the mag/acoustic signal from the back of the GR or use a 1/4" cable from the guitar, the "swooshing" thing doesn't happen.

GK3 came with the '55, but never tried it as 1) didn't think it would fit in the gap on my RG's between back pup's and trem's, and 2) the scratch-plate RG I use with the GR55 was converted with the Ghost setup when initially had a $50 GR50. It had a GK2 that didn't think would fit either, so wasn't attempted.

Obviously didn't do my research, but back in 2012 exchange rates were good so grabbed the Ghost setup cheap including the full GT Floyd saddles, I slotted the base plate on the IBZ Edge and it has been that way since. 

I've put all of the work into that guitar, so if the filter gets it done well enough, and considering my sporadic usage of the GR, I'll stick with it. A driver is a parts-guitar build I'm doing, with another full Ghost system ready to go into that - if I can't get the Graphtech deal working to my satisfaction in this setup, I won't bother using it in the parts-guitar build.

Until coming here, didn't realise could install an internal GK3 setup. Does it still do the acoustic thing, or do I need a LRB, GT etc piezo system to do that additionally?

Cheers mate.

Chris.

admin

#38
Quote from: Chris71 on July 06, 2018, 01:01:55 PM
Hi Peter,

Find the Ghost system an enigma. Sometimes I'm almost happy with it, sometimes want to introduce it to a ball hammer. Went with the setup with the stereo 1/4" output jack, so could still use the guitar normally in mono, or split it piezo-acoustic/electric.

But recently getting this intermittent "swooshing sound" like a scratchy pot (or an actual Ghost :D).

It can go for an hour with doing it. Yes, checked the pots, the switches, the Molex connectors etc. but the guitar being a scratch-plate style makes it a biatch to fault find. It I run it 13-pin into the GR55, and at the same time whether or not I output the mag/acoustic signal from the back of the GR or use a 1/4" cable from the guitar, the "swooshing" thing doesn't happen.

GK3 came with the '55, but never tried it as 1) didn't think it would fit in the gap on my RG's between back pup's and trem's, and 2) the scratch-plate RG I use with the GR55 was converted with the Ghost setup when initially had a $50 GR50. It had a GK2 that didn't think would fit either, so wasn't attempted.

Obviously didn't do my research, but back in 2012 exchange rates were good so grabbed the Ghost setup cheap including the full GT Floyd saddles, I slotted the base plate on the IBZ Edge and it has been that way since. 

I've put all of the work into that guitar, so if the filter gets it done well enough, and considering my sporadic usage of the GR, I'll stick with it. A driver is a parts-guitar build I'm doing, with another full Ghost system ready to go into that - if I can't get the Graphtech deal working to my satisfaction in this setup, I won't bother using it in the parts-guitar build.

Until coming here, didn't realise could install an internal GK3 setup. Does it still do the acoustic thing, or do I need a LRB, GT etc piezo system to do that additionally?

Cheers mate.

Chris.


Internal GK allows for Palm muting playing technique, and "does the acoustic thing" when connected to a GK processor - just need to to set the "GK TYPE" on the GK Processor ( VG-99, GR-55, GP-10) to "GK-3"

the Ghost is notorious for being lots of hiss, noise, and poorest tracking hex PU.

Internal GK-KIT-GT-3 are lowest cost here
https://www.andertons.co.uk/roland-gk3-internal-pickup-kit

and installation instructions are here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133.0

mmmmgtr

I think the "acoustic thing" question was a bit unclear. Just to clarify....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the GK3 internal nor the GK3 external do the "acoustic thing" natively. The GraphTech system, by nature of being a piezo system, can output an acoustic sound regardless of whether using a Roland GR55 system or not. To get an acoustic sound using a GK pick up you will need to use an acoustic model from the sounds internal to the GR55.

admin

Quote from: mmmmgtr on July 06, 2018, 01:18:25 PM
I think the "acoustic thing" question was a bit unclear. Just to clarify....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the GK3 internal nor the GK3 external do the "acoustic thing" natively. The GraphTech system, by nature of being a piezo system, can output an acoustic sound regardless of whether using a Roland GR55 system or not. To get an acoustic sound using a GK pick up you will need to use an acoustic model from the sounds internal to the GR55.

Correct - if you seek standalone acoustic tones  - the Graphetch Ghost or LR Baggs or Fishman Power Bridge provide that


Myself - I installed both LR Baggs and GK-KIT GT-3 on my Frankenstrat

Chris71

Quote from: admin on July 06, 2018, 08:52:27 AM

Exactly the reason why there exists the RMC subsonic filter  - to hep improve piezo hex PU tracking errors


What is a subsonic filter for GK 13 pin processor used for?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17667.0

Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=573.0
Quote from: admin on July 06, 2018, 01:06:18 PM

Internal GK allows for Palm muting playing technique, and "does the acoustic thing" too - just need to to set the "GK TYPE" on the GK Processor ( VG-99, GR-55, GP-10) to "GK-3"

the Ghost is notorious for being lots of hiss, noise, and poorest tracking hex PU.

Internal GK-KIT-GT-3 are lowest cost here
https://www.andertons.co.uk/roland-gk3-internal-pickup-kit

and installation instructions are here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133.0

Quote from: mmmmgtr on July 06, 2018, 01:18:25 PM
I think the "acoustic thing" question was a bit unclear. Just to clarify....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the GK3 internal nor the GK3 external do the "acoustic thing" natively. The GraphTech system, by nature of being a piezo system, can output an acoustic sound regardless of whether using a Roland GR55 system or not. To get an acoustic sound using a GK pick up you will need to use an acoustic model from the sounds internal to the GR55.

Sorry Guys',

Was watching some football.

Thanks a lot for the ideas and advice. This place makes me feel like a country boy walking into a big city for the first time. There is so much info, never seen anything like it. Amazing.

Cheers

Chris.

gumbo

...we try to help..   ;D

There are often multiple ways to overcome a problem, but it is important to first properly define the problem.

HTH

Peter
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Chris71

All good Peter.

The problem I have the GR55 is under-utilization ::), and the tracking/glitching issues. But the "swooshing" noise is a recent phenom. Was watching a vid of a guy testing the RMC filter install with the '55 back in day, and could have sworn he was experiencing the same swooshing issue - he started fiddling with the jack so guess he thought it was there......

OT, what constitutes the ground signal for the mag pickups. Is there shield on the 13-pin cable/jack arrangement? There has to be a ground reference in there somewhere.

Chris.

admin

#44
Quote from: Chris71 on July 11, 2018, 02:15:59 AM

OT, what constitutes the ground signal for the mag pickups. Is there shield on the 13-pin cable/jack arrangement? There has to be a ground reference in there somewhere.

Chris.

review the Schematics
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0

on the GK 13 Cable there is only one conductor ( THE CABLE SHIELD) for the combined Analog Ground + Earthing Ground  = the large round shell on the DIN 13 plug which is soldered / crimped  to the 13 pin cable shield 

GK Cable FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19481.0

admin

QuoteGR-55 - Some notes on GR-55 glitches...

If you are using a GK-3 pickup and experiencing lots of mis-triggering / ghost notes  on GR-55

Try wax potting your GK-3 pickup to stabilize all loose internal components in the adjustable radius GK-3 hex PU = more reliable Guitar to PCM  / Guitar to MIDI tracking and less warbles during DSP alt tuning for the COSM Modeled guitars

GK-3 - Wax Potting = Improve tracking and eliminate microphonic feedback
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=43.0

Chris71

Quote from: admin on July 11, 2018, 09:38:42 AM

review the Schematics
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0

on the GK 13 Cable there is only one conductor ( THE CABLE SHIELD) for the combined Analog Ground + Earthing Ground  = the large round shell on the DIN 13 plug which is soldered / crimped  to the 13 pin cable shield 

GK Cable FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19481.0

Thankyou Sir.

It's a big place. I'm gonna need some time to get used to it. 

JeffTronics

I don't want to present this as magic bullet solution because we know it's not that easy. Our experiences vary as well as our equipment and playing style

I own a GR-30, GR-33 and GR-55. As much as I love the features and tones in the GR-55, out of the box the GR30/33 track better for my Godin RMC guitars. Recently however I discovered a setting with my GR-55; especially for the piano patch, that actually has it tracking just as good as the 30 and 33. Keep in mind I already have the built-in and external subsonic filters but still for years struggled with getting acceptable tracking and minimizing/eliminating ghost notes. Using the piano patch as an example, I notice the ghost notes trigger when I perform a hammer on. In the PCM piano tone setting, I set the Release to -5, and the ghost notes stopped!.

Through trial and error I have been through every suggested system and patch level setting to no avail and was surprised this one setting made the biggest difference  for me. For other known patches with ghost notes I also set the Release as low as -13. Additionally, for the problem patches I do also customize the Level Velocity Sensitivity to +13, and Velocity Curve Type to 1. These are for my playing style and touch, but the Release settings seems to be the starting point for me to start chipping away at the ghost notes, at the patch level.

Just wanted to share this..



Heffy

#48
I was getting a lot of glitches. They included notes not responding and other digital artifacts. I've eliminated 99% of them by thoroughly cleaning the contact ends on all of my cables. I used pure medical-grade alcohol for cleaning first on all of the pins, inserting and removing multiple times from the sockets on both the guitar and the GR-55. Then I used Caig D100L followed by Caig G100L, both with the brush applicators. I purchased Micro Applicator Brushes from Amazon to clean each pin after each application and very closely followed the directions for both Caig products. To say I've noticed a difference is an understatement! I'm able to track much faster. The dropouts are virtually nonexistent. The differences are mind-boggling! If you haven't tried it, it's worth it. It's eliminated all of the frustrations that I've had, especially during live performances. Even my old $14 Amazon off-brand cables work like a charm!