GR-55 - What type of amp?

Started by 3dognate, February 08, 2011, 07:59:23 AM

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musicman65

Quote from: big dooley on April 24, 2014, 11:01:36 PM
yes, but most guitarists have a guitaramp and no FRFR system... and when they have, it is used as the FOH-system for the band they play in
in that case putting some fullrange speakers in a separate guitarcab or even install a horn tweeter with an L-pad will work just as well for monitoring purposes
Your making assumptions. The OP asked what is the best, not what most guitarist already have. Also, a guitar cab with FRFR speakers and tweeters won't be an accurate reproduction of FOH. The guitarist will tweek their patches to sound good from their amp and it'll sound whacked through FOH. That is the #1 problem with new users. They think their new Roland GR/VG is a multi-effect box for use with their guitar amp....wrong! The best solution is something that comes as close to FOH as possible...which isn't the amp they are using.

Again, if you have got your guitar amp modified for FRFR and can "get by" with that, great! For someone seeking the best solution to purchase, a good powered PA speaker is much better.

big dooley

i don't make assumptions... i speak from experiences
...struggle and emerge...

Elantric

#277
We all have our own personal perspective on which amp works and which ones don't. And each individual has unique requirements for their gig situation.  Its healthy to know all options on which amps work for each situation. But lets respect other members opinions when they conflict with our own.   

Headless68

I think the musical style you are predominantly playing factors into this
Live I'm playing mostly Rock / pop covers type stuff (Foos, KOL, radiohead, strokes, arctic monkeys etc) so for me the PCM elements are minimal therefore I am happily playing through a vintage valve head in mono on a very clean channel - it sounds great.

I have tried going direct to band PA but I didnt like having lack of control live - its nice to just turn around and do minor tweaks live if needed & I couldnt do that.

I have also used a pair of Cube 60's - to be honest they were great and I would recommend them - dont 'really' get the full stereo thing live really so if you dont have anything at the moment I would recommend starting with one & seeing how that works for you.
(Had a cube 80 also but found the 60's sounded better in some way - maybe a little less toppy? )

If I were looking to do a project which was more electronic based I would probably switch to a stand alone full range powered PA speaker or go back to a Cube solution

musicman65

My comment on making assumptions wasn't meant as a slam. I meant that the OP may not want the limitations of a "single voice" in a guitar amp. Please accept my apologies.

I guess I am saying that your intended use is only part of what the GR55 can do and that's fine. All your tones have the voicing of your amp which, of course, fits your style of playing. That's perfect since it works for you.

The GR55 is designed around a direct to PA concept and has settings to accommodate those who want to use a less optimal method. PCM sounds and amp simulations will never sound as accurate with combo amps or stacks, even if modified or FRFR designed.

That being said, I am in the same boat as everyone else. I have to select an amp that serves in many different situations and styles. My choice has compromises as well. There is no "best" just as Elantric said. There are better "general recommendations". If a GR55 user wants the full capabilities, there are many FRFR powered PA boxes available. I have no specific recommendations.

For my personal situation, I run PA direct and monitor with a stereo keyboard combo amp. It is not as flat as I would like but the audience doesn't hear it and I use IEMs so amp quality isn't as important to me. At 500 watts, it is "good enough" to play a small venue with no PA. Its a Motion Sound KP500s. I'd go with a powered 1200w PA box if I did it again.

To each their own!

Elantric

#280
For those who missed it - This thread below lists the Amps that are known to work well with GR-55 / VG-99 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9484.0

You want your live tone to match the same sound you hear using good Headphones directly connected to the GR-55/VG-99.

I use Sony MDR-7506 or Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones, and I can dial in great Acoustic guitar sounds from the GR-55 or VG-99.
Bottom line its "garbage in = garbage out" - if you have bad sound in your Headphones   - then no external amp is going to make it sound better.       

Human hearing range is 20-20Khz frequency response.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range

The best amplification systems will have flat response 20-20kHz freq. response speakers and lots of headroom(= watts!) , to support the VG/GR Synths.

A good test for any amp is bring your  iPod and play back some of your favorite pre-recorded music you know  well - and see how that translates on the AMP under review.

If you only do electric guitar modeling then a system with 80-8kHz frequency response works, but Acoustic guitars , Synths , BAss,work best with flat 20-20kHz  frequency response.

Old school "pre 1980s" Bass rigs had 30-8kHz range, modern bass rigs with HF Horn tweeters extend this range to 20kHz 
For any DSP guitar modeler with a DAC (Digital to Analog Convertor) on its final output  - (KPA, POD, VG, Digitech RP,GSP,Zoom G series,etc) ) you need massive headroom to fully hear the intended tones, and keep up with the other guitar player playing a real tube amp. Using a DSP Amp modeler into a tube amp, will restrict and compress / distort the available range of tones, and guitar speakers have that limited 80-8kHz Range.

Using a solid state power amp with low wattage (under 50 watts) will typically clip and distort early and have significant problems recreating the punch of a tube amp , but there are exceptions (see below)

The numbers on paper seem incomprehensible, but it can take a 500-1000 watt amp driving flat response speakers to match the "punch" of a 30 watt Tube Guitar Amp.

Most folks go for the all in one self powered PA speakers available today

Many "FRFR" (Full Range / Flat Response)  amps can sound very bad with Modeled guitar, with demonstrable over sensitivity in the high frequencies to distort  - rather like the sound of "rice crispies" with constant sputtering with every note played on the guitar.
Roland AC-33, AC-60, Crate Limo,  suffer these HF distortions when used as an amplifier for GR-55 /VG-99 and played loud. Mostly its the low wattage internal power amplifier that is "clipping" and making these bad distortions.


Often this can also be due to overloading the receiving preamp on the powered speaker. Watch for any "clip" LEDS to be flashing on the powered speaker, and lower the Master Output level on the GR-55 / VG-99. Or it can be a poor crossover network and HF Horn that can not tolerate the intantaneous peak-peak non compressed transients of Guitar.

I would refer any GR-55 / VG-99 user to review the list of recommended  Flat Response /  Full Range  amplification system in the Amplification Systems area of the forum.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=37.0
Today I use the following.

All Amplification Systems on this list below are known to be able to be played very loud with no distortion or weird High Frequency breakup anomalies.



For small portability flat response and stereo for low volume rehearsals,  Polk HitMaster (100 watts - but feels like a 10 watt tube amp) (Im looking for a 2nd one!) 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9459.0

For loud gigs with minimal transport grab and go- I use the clean "JC-120" channel or MP3 input on a Roland Cube 80XL. Sometimes bring two for stereo. Reasonably flat and decent sounding despite a single 12" speaker.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6471.0

When i have more transport room I have a Traynor K4  - many of us use these, but its larger and heavier which plays a factor as I get older.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=720.msg3217#msg3217


Back in 1998 I used to use a pair of JBL EON 15P, but I wore them out by 2004 ( woofers need replacement)
http://www.zzounds.com/item--JBLEON15P
http://reconekits.com/jbleonpower15.aspx

Ive had good luck with a pair of cheap Behringer B212A (now discontinued and replaced by B212D) 
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-EUROLIVE-B212D-1-35-inch-Compression/dp/B002C4N8TM/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1379165283&sr=1-1&keywords=b212A

and I have a pair of EV ELX112P which I use for band PA with a separate mix board ( Yamaha 01V or Phonic Helix 18 (the phonic has 16 channel firewire to a macbook for gig recordings )
Direct from VG-99 Sub XLR Output or GR-55 1/4" Output, I found the Behringer B212A's worked better because the ELX112P really needs a hot signal (from a mix board) to get the SPL up 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5698.msg42907#msg42907

I would also add these Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) systems to the list.

Alto TS110A
http://altoproaudio.com/products/ts110a


Alto SXM112a
http://altoproaudio.com/products/sxm112a


RCF NX12SMA
http://www.rcf.it/products/pro-speaker-systems/nx-series/nx-12-sma

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/amps-cabs/54795-rcf-nx-12-sma-vs-ev-elx112p-first-thoughts-mini-review-2.html

Yamaha DXR
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/speakers/dxr/


Atomic CLR
http://www.atomicamps.com/products.htm

vtgearhead

Quote from:  Elantric on April 26, 2014, 08:56:27 AM
The numbers on paper seem incomprehensible, but it can take a 500-1000 watt amp driving flat response speakers to match the "punch" of a 30 watt Tube Guitar Amp.

Not disputing this statement, but I'd be interested in knowing the science behind it.

musicman65

The science behind the need for high wattage solid state amps with overhead is fairly simple.

Tube amps have a soft clip and desirable harmonics which give them the desired tone. A solid state amp sounds like hell when clipped and should be avoided at all cost! This means having way more power than you need....or even think you need.

Also, tubes can deliver peak transients that are much higher than their rating AND they typically drive very efficient and mid heavy speakers (not flat response, just the opposite) So the sound pressure (volume at a given distance) can be very loud per watt.

To reproduce these tube amp tone characteristics accurately through a solid state amp, the speakers must be full range and flat response for a given cabinet. This means they are much less efficient so more wattage is required.

Every 6db in lost efficiency requires a doubling in makeup wattage to get the same volume. Then we need to triple that number again to handle high transient sounds like pick attack without clipping. Then we need to double that for extra overhead. Depending on the speaker efficiency, this can make the wattage requirements 6 to 12 times that of a guitar amp!

Fortunately, a 1200 watt solid state amp isn't nearly as expensive per watt as a tube amp! They are also commonplace today.

Elantric

Perfectly stated Musicman65

QuoteThe science behind the need for high wattage solid state amps with overhead is fairly simple.

Tube amps have a soft clip and desirable harmonics which give them the desired tone. A solid state amp sounds like hell when clipped and should be avoided at all cost! This means having way more power than you need....or even think you need.

Also, tubes can deliver peak transients that are much higher than their rating AND they typically drive very efficient and mid heavy speakers (not flat response, just the opposite) So the sound pressure (volume at a given distance) can be very loud per watt.

To reproduce these tube amp tone characteristics accurately through a solid state amp, the speakers must be full range and flat response for a given cabinet. This means they are much less efficient so more wattage is required.

Every 6db in lost efficiency requires a doubling in makeup wattage to get the same volume. Then we need to triple that number again to handle high transient sounds like pick attack without clipping. Then we need to double that for extra overhead. Depending on the speaker efficiency, this can make the wattage requirements 6 to 12 times that of a guitar amp!

Fortunately, a 1200 watt solid state amp isn't nearly as expensive per watt as a tube amp! They are also commonplace today.

whippinpost91850

Dont believe anyone could have made this more clear 8)

big dooley

Quote from:  musicman65 on April 26, 2014, 08:47:33 AM
My comment on making assumptions wasn't meant as a slam. I meant that the OP may not want the limitations of a "single voice" in a guitar amp. Please accept my apologies.
no sweat... we're cool ;)

QuoteI guess I am saying that your intended use is only part of what the GR55 can do and that's fine. All your tones have the voicing of your amp which, of course, fits your style of playing. That's perfect since it works for you.

not really, i still discover certain types of sounds, that are not made with the stack in mind at all...
the real voicing of a guitar amp comes from the preamp and guitarspeakers... the poweramp section is basically that... a poweramp... mine are now driving full range speakers, while the preamp is placed between the regular pickups and the GR55 normal pickup input (pin 7) using a breakout box and a speaker emulator... i happen to switch between the "real" preamps and the modelled preamps... they both have their pros and cons so when combining them, i get some sort of best of both worlds... add some acoustics and synths and the package is complete... i also start to experiment around with a home made talkbox just for fun

left and right signals are being send into 2 marshall poweramp sections and i place a DI-box into one of the outputs which sends the complete signal into the FOH desk... works great
...struggle and emerge...

JolietJake

"Depending on the speaker efficiency, this can make the wattage requirements 6 to 12 times that of a guitar amp!"

Just to clarify that I'm not doubting anyone's science or experience...
but whenever I plug my GR-55 into an old Peavey 250W RMS PA I have and play a normal "modelled" guitar tone through it. It is ASTONISHINGLY loud. Easily more "apparent" volume than my Fender deluxe 112 plus (95W RMS transistor amp).

I guess the answer is just try it and see.

musicman65

Both your examples were solid state. If your combo guitar amp was 95w tube powered and driven hard, it would probably be much louder than the Peavey. Also, your Peavy 250w PA speaker may have been hitting the soft clip. Peavey usually includes a limiter to prevent a hard clip. It limits transient peaks and let's the speaker drive even harder and louder at the expense of not being as dynamic. Also, loudness is one aspect, flat response is another. Usually the flatter the response, the less efficient the speaker system, especially in compact designs.

There are always those exceptions...like the old Klipsch Folded Horn speakers that were unbelievably flat and efficient....but they where huge.

Flat, Efficient, Compact....pick any two. Having all 3 attributes is an expensive proposition. Today, with the advent of compact high output Class D solid state amps, most speaker manufacturers are choosing Flat and Compact and throwing a huge amp in it to overcome the loss in speaker efficiency.

Elantric

#288
I own a 1960's Fender Vibrolux Reverb with 35 watts, with a custom cab  / front baffle board loaded with 12" EVM12L and a 10" Jenson C10Q Alnico Speaker -

Due to the efficiency of my choice of speakers this old Fender 35Watt amp  can easily sound much louder and deliver higher SPL than my GR-55 feeding my EV ELX12P 1000watt Powered PA cab
http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=1066

But realize this does NOT make the Fender Vibrolux  a better amp choice for the GR-55 than the  EV ELX12P!
Just because an Amplifier is louder does not mean its a "better" amp!

JolietJake

#289
Quote"Just because an Amplifier is louder does not mean its a "better" amp!"

The most accurate statement here I think.

Also have to agree with your statement regarding efficiency. If you are amplifying the same frequency bandwidth it is impossible for one system of any given power to sound louder than any other system of equal power except where the output transducer (speaker) is more efficient at converting that energy from one format to another ( i.e. electrical power to sound).

The other thing that is also overlooked is that human hearing (and therefore audio volume) is logarithmic. i.e. to have an apparent doubling of audio volume you have to increase the power by a factor of 10. What this means is that if you have a theoretical speaker and amplifier system which is outputting 100W RMS of an audio signal in order to double the volume you have to increase the power to 1000W.

Based on this the audio difference between 100W and 200W is only an increase of 10% in perceived audio volume.

I still stand by the statement "Use your ears" if it sounds good, that is all that matters.


rolandvg99

Not trying to be ignorant, but the way I see it Rolands GR and VG series are meant to replace the whole chain and certainly sounds best when run direct to board and being fed back trough good wedges or IEMs.


A traditional guitar amp makes the sound harsh and honky. A traditional setup sounds more real for the player, but might in fact sound garbage out front. It's always fun to blast through a 100 watt 8x12 stack at rehearsals to feel that awesome power from a quad of hefty tubes, but in most performance situations, except from huge arenas or stadiums, they are a showstoppers. You need a 10KW PA (depending on speaker configuration and tech) to be within striking distance of a full blown stack.


Most of the "mud" heard from a band in a typical club setting is from playing too loud on stage. Most artists think that if they sound bad live it must be their FOH person messing about when the truth is that more often than not it's the other way around.


General rule of thumb for better FOH sound: Turn down your backline to the lowest comfortable setting and then drop it another notch or five. Enjoy music as a social happening, it's not a competition.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Elantric

QuoteGeneral rule of thumb for better FOH sound: Turn down your backline to the lowest comfortable setting and then drop it another notch or five. Enjoy music as a social happening, it's not a competition.


Very true!

Nothing is worse than making a Stereo recording taken directly off the FOH Mixing Board of your bands best live show, and discovering upon playback that the FOH mixer did not place very much of your Guitar Amps's sound in the main PA mix, because your 100 watt backline on stage amp was too loud for the venue.   

JolietJake

"General rule of thumb for better FOH sound: Turn down your backline to the lowest comfortable setting and then drop it another notch or five. Enjoy music as a social happening, it's not a competition."

Exactly!

I'm amazed how many guitarist friends I talk to these days who have a "good quality" 5-20W amplifier instead of 150-250W 10 years ago.


datsunrobbie

Pardon if this is wrong, but to really have FRFR don't you need the amp and speakers to BOTH be full range? I'm thinking that a typical guitar amp has already cut lows and highs before getting to the speakers, so a simple speaker swap would not necessarily turn a guitar amp into a FR amp. Plugging a Fender Twin into a full range cab would be bit different than plugging a McIntosh of similar wattage into the same cab.

Elantric

#294
QuotePardon if this is wrong, but to really have FRFR don't you need the amp and speakers to BOTH be full range? I'm thinking that a typical guitar amp has already cut lows and highs before getting to the speakers, so a simple speaker swap would not necessarily turn a guitar amp into a FR amp. Plugging a Fender Twin into a full range cab would be bit different than plugging a McIntosh of similar wattage into the same cab.

Discover the differences of guitar amp vs Speakers  vs Mics here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11075.msg80845#msg80845


I find studying these Amp/Cab/Mic Freq Curve plots helps too

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.msg3791#msg3791

Typical Amp, Cab, Mic Frequency Response Curves.

Although I developed these tests a few years ago with a Line6 Vetta  - the basic characteristic "EQ Curve" of most popular Amps, Cabs, and Mics are documented here - to get you in the ball park. I think anyone trying to get a decent guitar tone will be better equipped if they understand the Frequency response differences / relationships between:

Amp Heads:  a Fender Twin, and a Marshall JCM-800, or a Peavey 5150.

Speaker Cabs:  A Celestion Vintage 30, Jenson C10Q, or a JBL D130

Mics: Shure SM-57, Seinheisser 421, Neumann U-47 - (both On Axis and Off Axis!)

Its not off topic to refer to these EQ plots when trying to emulate these sounds with a VG-99 / GR-55 - I view each of the companies (Line6, Roland, Digitech, Axsys) as leapfrogging each other  - its more a function of "who's got the faster DSP and highest bit depth this year?

http://www.vettaville.com/vetta_frequency_plots.htm


More important knowledge is here:

Roland COSM Reference Library
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0   



I find the sound of your chosen DSP Guitar Amp Sim device must sound good to you using :

(A) Headphones  - i now use Audio Technica ATM-H50 for reference cans.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/headphones/0edf909675b1be4d/index.html

(B) Studio Monitors  - at home I use older Samson Resolv 65A & Auratone 5C SoundCubes for reference.

If you perform at venue with a good professional house PA and floor monitor wedges, your life will be much easier if you simply feed your chosen DSP Guitar Amp Sim device into a D.I. box and let the soundman control your FOH  mix.

datsunrobbie

Thanks Steve. The plot I was hoping to find is not there, though. All the AMP sim tests use the default speaker for the amp, except the first couple with the cab set to bypass. I'm curious about the effect of running different amps into the same speaker, or bypass setting. I'm guessing that the Fender tweed curve would look a lot different than the curve for the "bypass" amp running into the "bypass" cab.

Rorster

#296
Questions for the great minds here. You all have a lot more experience.
Over the years I bought a Mesa Stereo Simulclass 2 90, and later a Mesa stereo 2 50 watt power amp (both stereo Tube power amps). It was a trip I just happened to buy in to in those days. I have used them with 4x12 cabs and 2x12 cabs as typical guitar rigs along with a Digitech 2101, then a GT8, an X3 live, iPb10.  These tube amps are great amps BUT Later I learned the importance of the FRFR concept as related to using these guitar processors. So I began sending the GR 55 or AXON signals to small powered PAs and or keyboard amps But kept the other processors, GT8... (with a 2 cable method)  going through the stereo power amps and guitar cabs. Some of the best tone that I ever got was by plugging into a GT8,then it's stereo outs directly into the front of a Fender Bandmaster head/cab and a bass amp for stereo. Awesome potential for quality sustain and really good feedback. The Axon and GR 55 stuff I know is not well suited to the typical 2x12/4x12 guitar cabs because of their synths and other instruments that they simulate that require more full range speakers.  I now wonder, in the context of this topic, how would these Mesa tube power amps sound powering these different processors GT8, X3Live... also to unpowered PA speakers. Is it theoretically better to ditch the 4X12/2X12 cabs in lieu of mixing board to PA...?  As suggested here if I'm not mistaken the tube power amps could well be used as long as the speakers are FRFR or PA and not the typical Celestions...?

JolietJake

I was wondering if anyone has tried a Fender Mustang 3,4 or 5 with the GR-55?

The mustang has a full range input (aux) for playing backing tracks but has also has some fantastic reviews/demos for normal guitar input.
I was thinking it might be ideal for running 2 cables from the guitar to the same amp. The combination of the GR-55 on the FR channel and the Guitar using the effects available through the Fender Fuse software sounds pretty flexible.

vtgearhead

I have a Mustang III.  While the "full range" input does indeed bypass all the signal processing and tone shaping, the Celestion G12-T speaker is quite far from flat-response (we'll assume the power amp does not introduce any coloration).  In other words, it probably won't be optimal for reproduction of acoustic guitar or synth sounds.

Driving the Aux input from a GR-55 is equivalent to driving a loop return, but in your proposed setup you would also be blending in the output from the preamp and DSP stages on the Fender.  I guess I'd also be concerned about comb-filtering effects due to phase differences between the signals. 

Probably would be a good idea to find a music store where you can drag in the GR-55 and try it out for yourself.

JolietJake

Hello Snhirsch

Thanks for the feedback. I have seen on the internet that the speaker is in fact flat response and that the amp does a "reasonable" job of playing mp3's fed through the aux. I don't expect top notch audio quality especially from an amp in this price range. Like everything else in playing guitar there are compromises and I thought it may be good enough for acoustic sounds etc. If the amp is good enough for GR-55 playback and there are some excellent reviews with "normal" guitar, then I though it may give me flexibility for playing 2 entirely different types of gigs.

Ultimately as you say the best option would be to try it and see if I like it.

Thanks