GK3 vs. Shadow hex for ATG

Started by Majiken, October 12, 2016, 04:22:03 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Majiken

Hi, as noted on the Antares ATG thread I just ordered a luthier kit, which has a Shadow hex pickup. I understand I could also use the GK3, which I have. Question: are there technical comparisons between the two, especially regarding crosstalk? Or are they close enough to each other as to be virtually interchangeable? Please note that I intend to try wiring the guitar with an internal GK3 kit and 13-pin jack as well to have access to both systems, ideally in parallel (!).
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

admin

#1
Shadow Mag hex PU is very similar electrically to a GK-3 mag hex PU  - but they do use a different connector  - so DIY hacking is required to use a GK-3 Mag Hex PU with ATG internal kit or Shadow Mag Hex PU with GK-KIT-GT3

Quote? Please note that I intend to try wiring the guitar with an internal GK3 kit and 13-pin jack as well to have access to both systems, ideally in parallel (!).

Should be doable - its a very similar approach as Vade did with the Fender Fishman Tripleplay Strat with internal GK-KIT-GT3 ( One Mag Hex PU feeding two separate interfaces ( FTP+GK-KIT)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

Majiken

Thanks! DIY hacking will be required anyway to get the parallel split; all things being equal it would likely be easier to use the Shadow, since the 7 wires aren't in the connector yet. Final decision will be made when the kit shows up.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

admin

#3
all Mag Hex PU's have 6 separate pickups in one housing and at least 7 wires ( 6 signals ( one per PU) +  common ground connection, often a separate Earth Ground shield connection ( 8 wires total) 


Same Techniques for Testing Magnetic guitar pickups exist for past 70 years
http://guitar-parts.biz/hp543108/Overview.htm


In this manner the electrical connection for each PU coil in any make/model Mag Hex PU can be identified

Majiken

It's not the simple wire alignment process that I was addressing, but potential performance issues especially like crosstalk which could sway the favor to using one hex pickup over another. Assuming now that both are in the same performance ballpark, the question shifts to which is easier to install and how best to come up with a parallel wiring harness in the space available. Which wire connects to which is probably the easiest piece of the puzzle...
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Elantric

Both have equal crosstalk immunity

cags12

Reviving this topic. I might need to open a new one I dunno.

@Majiken -  Did you get a chance to test this?

I have just installed the Hex based luthier kit into my Lab guitar (Peavey AT200) with the GK3 Pickup and unfortunately the results are very poor. Gain levels of the GK3 pickup feeding the ATG systems are barely audible unless I am doing something very wrong.

For that I need some advise.

@Elantric/All
Both pickups might be electrically compatible but the difference in hotness make them non swap-able.
Any other Hex pickup that could serve as a replacement of the Shadow Pickup. preferably as narrow as the GK3 one?

Elantric

#7
Quote from: cags12 on February 01, 2018, 10:11:16 AM
Reviving this topic. I might need to open a new one I dunno.

@Majiken -  Did you get a chance to test this?

I have just installed the Hex based luthier kit into my Lab guitar (Peavey AT200) with the GK3 Pickup and unfortunately the results are very poor. Gain levels of the GK3 pickup feeding the ATG systems are barely audible unless I am doing something very wrong.

For that I need some advise.

@Elantric/All
Both pickups might be electrically compatible but the difference in hotness make them non swap-able.
Any other Hex pickup that could serve as a replacement of the Shadow Pickup. preferably as narrow as the GK3 one?

find a used GK-2A PU

or Yamaha G1D

same as Axon AIX-101
http://terratec.ultron.info/AXON/AIX103/Manual/AXON_AIX_103_Manual_1.0_GB.pdf

the hard one to locate is Fishman OEM FTP pickup from Godin / Fender

cags12

Quote from: Elantric on February 01, 2018, 10:19:34 AM
find a used GK-2A PU

or Yamaha G1D

same as Axon AIX-101
http://terratec.ultron.info/AXON/AIX103/Manual/AXON_AIX_103_Manual_1.0_GB.pdf

Thanks Elantric. Do you reckon those pickups are hotter than the GK3 or you are just suggesting I should test with them with no guarantees?

Elantric

Quote from: cags12 on February 01, 2018, 10:24:43 AM
Thanks Elantric. Do you reckon those pickups are hotter than the GK3 or you are just suggesting I should test with them with no guarantees?

no guarantees - but worth testing

cags12

Quote from: Elantric on February 01, 2018, 10:39:57 AM
no guarantees - but worth testing
They might be hard to source though. I was also thinking in the Fishman pickup but I suspect if others have integrated it with the GK kit successfully, then output should be very similar to the GK3 pickup.

Majiken

#11
Quote from: cags12 on February 01, 2018, 10:11:16 AM

@Majiken -  Did you get a chance to test this?

I have just installed the Hex based luthier kit into my Lab guitar (Peavey AT200) with the GK3 Pickup and unfortunately the results are very poor. Gain levels of the GK3 pickup feeding the ATG systems are barely audible unless I am doing something very wrong.

Hi cags12, if you haven't seen this yet please check this out: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19806.0 , especially from reply #3 onward.  I ended up using the Shadow because it was there- output from the ATG and GK-3 systems appear okay (if I recall correctly I set the volume full up in the ATG Software Manager, did you do that?) and roughly equal WHEN USED EXCLUSIVELY.  When using both simultaneously, the impedance load causes a severe volume drop on the ATG but again, used on its own with the software set at full bore the Shadow pickup worked find.  Sorry that I don't have a direct comparison between the two pickups, since the fat Shadow fit on the guitar I decided against butchering an external GK-3 kit.

Hope this helps somehow....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

cags12

Quote from: Majiken on February 01, 2018, 01:40:19 PM
Hi cags12, if you haven't seen this yet please check this out: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19806.0 , especially from reply #3 onward.  I ended up using the Shadow because it was there- output from the ATG and GK-3 systems appear okay (if I recall correctly I set the volume full up in the ATG Software Manager, did you do that?) and roughly equal WHEN USED EXCLUSIVELY.  When using both simultaneously, the impedance load causes a severe volume drop on the ATG but again, used on its own with the software set at full bore the Shadow pickup worked find.  Sorry that I don't have a direct comparison between the two pickups, since the fat Shadow fit on the guitar I decided against butchering an external GK-3 kit.

Hope this helps somehow....

Hey Majiken. Thank you, I was actually aware of your build.

I think you made the right choice of using the Shadow pickup instead the GK3. I have proven the GK3 cannot drive the ATG system but the opposite Shadow->GK preamp works fine (based on your test).

My problem and thought solution was what I describe on this post:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21223.msg164696#msg164696
Now I do not know if I can do that. I only have 8 mm clearance from the bridge to the bridge pickup moved further up (2mm).

I believe I can do something if I remove the plastic over from the Shadow pickup but it will ultra tight fit still. At this point it seems I will have to stick with Piezos...

whippinpost91850

I used the shadow on my SG for the Gk internal kit build. It works fine and all the strings line up

cags12

Jamstik+ 's Magnetic Pickup seems like a good option to test. It will be a bit tough to source without paying for the whole device. Perhaps their support can sell me one.

Does anyone know if Fender and/or Godin offer direct support over the Fishamn Tripleplay OEM parts? I am thinking on trying to get a Fishman pickup but I know for a fact Fishamn will not sell directly.