Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?

Started by Rhcole, December 04, 2014, 10:07:44 AM

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Rhcole

...if an empire it is...  ;)

I note our friend Bill R.'s latest video about the EHX C9 organ pedal. Man, that thing sounds pretty good! Now I know that Bill shows off the strengths of these products by avoiding showcasing product weaknesses and flaws, as he rightfully should. BTW, it works Bill- you've sold me so many little gadgets that there should be a bust of you, me, or both of us at EHX headquarters by now!

We also know that when Bill is laid to rest 100 years or so in the future that a VG-99 will be clutched in his boney little fingers, impossible to pry out.

Still, my point is that Roland is not exactly leapfrogging non-hex competitors such as Electro-Harmonix with their hex developments. I DO like having great guitars such as the GP-10 produces, and yes, alt tunings etc. are still a VG specialty. And I will even grant the amazing sounds the VG-99 produces as proof of what hex guitar can do... if somebody cares.

But, two sounds that I insist on, organ and string/synth pads, are now being done PRETTY WELL by non-hex products. I had to have a hex system before to cop those sounds. Faster processors, computers, new sound-shaping tools are nipping at the heels of hex-based processing of guitar strings.

Perhaps it's only a matter of time...

Elantric

#1
( Roland sales staff asks: What VG Empire? )

IMHO - its not the little boxes -

What is eroding the "13 pin GK/VG/GR/GP dimly lit corner of the world"  are these:

Laptop  /  Tablet Computers





supernicd

#2
Well, speaking for myself, little boxes. as good as they might sound, have a big problem.  It takes an awful lot of them to equal all the virtual little boxes found in something like a VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, etc.  They are missing a global preset system that ties them all together to let you change their settings in a single stomp.  They don't have a nifty assigns system to let you modulate the controls of 3 of the boxes at once with one expression pedal.  For me, lots of little boxes = one big headache at performance time.

Tablet apps, at least right now, have similar problems, since they are forced to operate in their own sandboxes, but that's changing.  PC/Mac apps are better but are still a headache to set up and maintain in such a way that they work harmoniously together.

I say the state of the empire is intact.  But the King should pay attention and heed the warnings. :)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

mbenigni

#3
SuperNiCd raises all of the important points regarding flexibility, connectivity, interoperability...

But setting all of those things aside, the only thing that continues to attract me to hex guitar setups is alternate tuning, and this is more of a conceptual interest than a practical one.  I do 99% of my playing in the physical tuning of my guitar anyway.  Meanwhile, specialized boxes like the EHX B9 play better than MIDI triggering or the more recent OSC synths from Roland (IMO).  It's easier for me to find a timbre that I like in an iOS app than in the random, aging piles of good, bad and ugly that Roland usually bundles with their h/w products.  And here is the most surprising thing of all:  for all of the hex-based MIDI guitar h/w I've owned, from MIDIAxe to GR55 (and many others), none of it has ever tracked as fast or as reliably as JamOrigin on iOS does.  JamOrigin has its limitations of course - no differentiation between strings, no pitch bend - but it is seriously fast and far less prone to glitching on harmonic frequencies that have nothing to do with the range of a guitar's fretboard.

Honestly, if I hadn't invested so much time making the GR55 work exactly the way I wanted it to work, I probably wouldn't own a GK guitar right now.  (And, as these things always go, I rarely turn on my GR55 anymore.  That rig is a trophy and an albatross.)

shawnb


In a broad sense, I'm with Elantric. 

I think all of this should go 'soft' in the mid-term.  The OSs are going to get stable enough.  IOS is simple enough.  It's only going to get better.   

At that point, your pedals are just controllers, MIDI converters & fanout boxes. 

For years here, my posts were "I'll never use a PC live", but since building a rig around my FTP, now I think I'm stuck there.  I just have so much flexibility with a PC rig. 

What further entrenched me was Usine Hollyhock - an odd mix of dev platform & VST host - I feel like whatever I don't have, I can fairly easily write:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6296.0

So...  I don't want a VG100, but I'd ABSOLUTELY LOVE a "soft" VG99...   

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

germanicus

Not so much little boxes but rather competing products in general. I have pretty much foregone Roland modeling and pitch to midi for products that cover the same bases. I may get a gp10, but need to really try it out side by side against my JTV first. 

Im not sure if Roland does come out with a vg100, I would be getting one. They would really have to improve their guitar modeling and significantly improve their pitch to midi (ie better than FTP) to get me to bite. Short of them licensing from fishman (what incentive would fishman have in this case?), I dont see this occuring.  When was the last time the tracking in a Roland converter significantly improved?

The technology available now is pretty good and i'm pretty happy with my current setup. This is weird, as for the longest time I was always 'in search of' improvements, and probably wasted way too much time 'tweaking'. Sansamp GT2 to Behringer v-amp to Zoom g9 to Pod Xt, to Pod x3 to Pod HD. Gr30 to Gr33 to Yamaha g10 to Gr55 to YRG gen 2 to Fishman Tripleplay.

Regarding recording, a funny thing is that i'm finding that one of the easier ways to do pitch to midi is simply drag audio tracks into midi tracks in sonar x3, as they have integrated Melodyne into the engine with ARA. It works quite well. You can even sing parts in and convert them.

Software instruments have really come into their own. I used to covet the flagship keyboards from Roland and Yamaha, but now it seems that the best is found in ala carte software instruments.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

supernicd

Kind of interesting to hear from those who have championed 13 pin gear at some point in their careers, and what's in their guitar chain now.  I wonder how many have more or less abandoned it, at least for "every day" use, and have moved on to something else.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

pasha811

For me the 13pin VG empire is still solid but the enemy army of pedals is approaching.
To blend all pedals together without a PC is possible with things like this :
http://www.joyoaudio.com/en/product/show_185.html
So the "one size fits all wonder box" might not be needed anymore.

What is still important for me is the form factor, weight and complexity of what I have to operate.
Lean is better. Less is more. I think Roland GP10 it's a good experiment to bring 13pin to the masses.
Price is not as high as VG99 and I see many enthusiastic people here and by judging from the replenishment times in the stores I know
Roland has under-produced the GP10GK version. The lack of a FX block separated from Compressor is what prevents me from buying one at the moment. I feel unsure.

VG world is a great world but many others are doing well without a 13 Pin pickup... industry standard, ease of use.. that's what matters the most. People love a 12 Euro Jack cable.. if broken, it's replaced. You cannot do the same with a cable that cost 4 times as such!

We'll see..

Best
Pasha




Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

supernicd

QuoteHere is part of the VG-99, duplicated as Floor stomp boxes

Ha!  Love it.  The choreography is inherent in the patch change. :)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

#9
QuoteThe choreography is inherent in the patch change

Or with careful aim at the pedal , mount this to your guitar and you are good for 40 patch changes



Bizzare Controllers
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=347.0

whippinpost91850

#10
Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 05, 2014, 07:45:22 AM
Kind of interesting to hear from those who have championed 13 pin gear at some point in their careers, and what's in their guitar chain now.  I wonder how many have more or less abandoned it, at least for "every day" use, and have moved on to something else.
Still using my GR55 every week for gigs.

Bill Ruppert

13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!

supernicd

QuoteOr with careful aim at the pedal , mount this to your guitar and you are good for 40 patch changes

Well, I am always looking for a new 'schtick' to entertain the audience, but I fear my aim would not be true enough. :)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

pasha811

Although I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.
I think that we could do some progresses but 13pin will always have the edge. .. But I am no programmer and I can be wrong.
However I took note of what Bill said. Just to prove me wrong in the future.. ;-)

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

pasha811

Quote from:  Elantric
Here is part of the VG-99, duplicated as Floor stomp boxes



Elantric,

This is great! Can we have the list of pedals?
Did it ever worked? It's crazy! :-)
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

supernicd

Quote from: pasha811 on December 05, 2014, 10:46:30 AM
Although I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.
I think that we could do some progresses but 13pin will always have the edge. .. But I am no programmer and I can be wrong.
However I took note of what Bill said. Just to prove me wrong in the future.. ;-)

I share your doubt to some extent.  But then again, I couldn't believe what Melodyne with DNA could do until I saw it for myself.  Granted, it's not real time yet, but it is pretty fast, and surprisingly accurate!
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

mbenigni

#16
QuoteAlthough I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.

It depends on your objectives.  You have to remember that a) most guitarist's objectives are pretty straightforward, and b) the direction of this technology is also driven by practical and commercial concerns.  The hex solution may perform better in a perfect world, but if you can sell the mono solution to 1000x as many players, improve standardization, encourage competition, and all that comes with that, determining which is really preferable is less obvious.

Yes, there will always and forever be more information in 6 signals than in 1, and this means that, with any given amount of computing power, a hex pickup holds more potential.  It's also true that there are certain types of information that will never be derived from a mono signal once it's been summed from 6 strings, e.g. which string did a given harmonic come from?  There's no "tagging" to indicate something like that, so applications that require variances from string to string (alt. tunings, instrument modeling, multi-instrument arrangements) will always benefit from independent pickups.

But, focusing on specific objectives - mainly pitch to MIDI or pitch to tuned oscillation - and acknowledging the law of diminishing returns, working with a mono source is actually practical right now.  I've been using it with varying degrees of success for nearly 10 years, and I'm now at the point where I think I prefer it over a GK cable and GR55 PCM or MIDI.  And my cables are cheap and plentiful.  :)

mbenigni

QuoteThe OSs are going to get stable enough.  IOS is simple enough.  It's only going to get better.

It's easy to imagine iOS eventually getting bloated like any other general-purpose OS has in the past, where incremental improvements in hardware are outpaced by overzealous software developers until the system as a whole is unusable.  (Hello Windows.)  But what's beginning to interest me in the mobile scene is the way h/w prices are plummeting, to the point where it's practical to own one or more fully programmable devices just for music apps (or specific subcategories of music apps), jailbreak, and put heads together with a collective of like-minded musicians to maintain or create OSes optimized for each purpose.  In a sense, you arrive back at the "little box" modularity, but with each of them fully programmable, and affordable.  It's that "looks like full circle; actually a spiral" thing.

Time will tell whether any of that will even be necessary, or whether iOS and Android will serve us better and better right out of the box.

supernicd

Well said, Marc.

If we do get a VG-100, my hope is that it's built with the best hardware available today (more processor, memory, etc. than it needs, full suite of I/O ports, etc.)  And while Roland could make some money off of the initial purchase, I think the real money could be in software sales.  From everything I've seen, this is what the 21st century model for fiscal success looks like.  Promote customer loyalty and prevent buyer remorse by giving out some software freebies from time to time, and charge people for big new features, a la carte or in bundles, delivered electronically. 

I think they could succeed here because music software on a more generic consumer platform is always going to be susceptible to problems that have little to do with music technology, but rather market forces.  iOS, Windows, Android, OS/X all have these problems today.  Should I upgrade my iPad or Mac to the latest OS?  It's actually a very difficult question to answer.  There are some new products I can't get without doing that, and some products I've already purchased that may no longer work if I do.

Now whether Roland, which seems to be traditionally entrenched in a hardware sales mindset will ever convert to this model... I have real doubts about that.  And that's all predicated on the notion that they still want to innovate and be a market leader.  I guess we'll see.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Frank

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on December 05, 2014, 09:46:52 AM
13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!
I smell an NDA...

Elantric

#20
QuoteI smell an NDA...

I have signed a few of those "gag orders" myself ;)

QuoteWell, I am always looking for a new 'schtick' to entertain the audience, but I fear my aim would not be true enough. :)


Rhcole

I think Bill is right about global effects, such as a global pitch shift, making it sound like an organ, electric piano, or even a sax with a superimposed wavetable.

(Hey Bill, EHX should make a pedal called Trilogy: Organ, Strings/Pad and electric piano, you can fake a Wurli with a bitcrusher and some other tricks now, or Quartet if you can throw in a synth, we can all get our Rick Wakeman capes out of storage, thank yew, thank yew vera' much)

Here's what's going to be REALLY HARD for a long time on guitar: Alternate tunings. Think about how much processor it would take to know that an inversion up the neck of the guitar is tuned outside of standard tuning- which strings are playing what. Even if you select a drop D for example to start with (which might be the simplest to program), there are all kinds of places to make a mistake even if the pitch shifts are glitch free. That kind of processing power is still pretty far away unless the fretboard is mapped or something.





pasha811

Quote from: mbenigni on December 05, 2014, 11:00:48 AM
It depends on your objectives.  You have to remember that a) most guitarist's objectives are pretty straightforward, and b) the direction of this technology is also driven by practical and commercial concerns.  The hex solution may perform better in a perfect world, but if you can sell the mono solution to 1000x as many players, improve standardization, encourage competition, and all that comes with that, determining which is really preferable is less obvious.

Yes, there will always and forever be more information in 6 signals than in 1, and this means that, with any given amount of computing power, a hex pickup holds more potential.  It's also true that there are certain types of information that will never be derived from a mono signal once it's been summed from 6 strings, e.g. which string did a given harmonic come from?  There's no "tagging" to indicate something like that, so applications that require variances from string to string (alt. tunings, instrument modeling, multi-instrument arrangements) will always benefit from independent pickups.

But, focusing on specific objectives - mainly pitch to MIDI or pitch to tuned oscillation - and acknowledging the law of diminishing returns, working with a mono source is actually practical right now.  I've been using it with varying degrees of success for nearly 10 years, and I'm now at the point where I think I prefer it over a GK cable and GR55 PCM or MIDI.  And my cables are cheap and plentiful.  :)

I got your point. Easily agree. When looking for VG99 I did not know anything about GK pickups. I tried some EHX pedals, FX on my DAW but in the end I wanted to sound like a pad because I am less good on keyboards than I am on guitar. Then I discovered this forum, Bill Ruppert unforgettable music and videos. Since then my search changed target. VG99 was the only one. The sum of all EHX pedals was more than VG99 so I eventually got one. Happy days since then. For all the guitarist I know, meet I am the heretic. At the beginning they think it's all about MIDI and with a grin they accept it, believing the VG99 is a sort of overgrown GR-20.. but when they realize or are told about what VG99 really is.. they look at me as if I'm weird. So yes the commercial push might be lost in the future. That's why we have to take care of our expensive cables and toys!  ;)   
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

OldGuitarDude

Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 05, 2014, 10:33:59 AM
Well, I am always looking for a new 'schtick' to entertain the audience, but I fear my aim would not be true enough. :)

And imagine the horror of an accidental misfire into the audience.......

Smash

Quote from: Rhcole on December 05, 2014, 03:11:26 PM
I think Bill is right about global effects, such as a global pitch shift, making it sound like an organ, electric piano, or even a sax with a superimposed wavetable.

(Hey Bill, EHX should make a pedal called Trilogy: Organ, Strings/Pad and electric piano, you can fake a Wurli with a bitcrusher and some other tricks now, or Quartet if you can throw in a synth, we can all get our Rick Wakeman capes out of storage, thank yew, thank yew vera' much)

Here's what's going to be REALLY HARD for a long time on guitar: Alternate tunings. Think about how much processor it would take to know that an inversion up the neck of the guitar is tuned outside of standard tuning- which strings are playing what. Even if you select a drop D for example to start with (which might be the simplest to program), there are all kinds of places to make a mistake even if the pitch shifts are glitch free. That kind of processing power is still pretty far away unless the fretboard is mapped or something.

This ^

Jumping on the coat tails of Melodyne and pulling information from a single polyphonic source is an amazing feet and opens the door to translating those grouped pitches into grouped pitches of another timbre - organ, sax, synth pad etc.

But it doesn't allow effective splitting. There is no way ever that the box can know which string played which note, it can only ever interpret the pitches and translate to a different sound. It's only half the picture. Massive market of course for players who want something to just work but not want or need the depth the hex option brings - there will always be players who want total control but I guess they (we) are in the minority.

Really quite surprised at you Bill being ready to write off hex pickups completely on this basis (well perhaps not considering your employer! :p) - the hex pup is still far more flexible and as someone who's known for being one of the most outside the box VG programmers (with the exception of Mr Keller) I'm surprised you can't see the potential of the union of this accurate pitch extraction technology used in conjunction with hex. Personally I think Hex is still here to stay - we just need an up to date flagship to remind everyone why it's so good!  ;)