GR-55 - Questions for Jim GR55 midi mapping

Started by Mrchevy, January 16, 2014, 10:43:15 AM

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Mrchevy

Or anyone with this setup..... Jim, I know you recently were using your GR55 and GT100 setup together were you went GR55 L/R outputs to GT100 AUX IN. Every once in a while I re-evaluate my setup for possible improvements or efficiency. Not to long ago I was experimenting with a G3x and my Mustang Floor where I went G3x output to the Mustang Floor AUX IN. I have been using a stereo mixer. GR55 and GT100 to mixer and out to powered monitors. In an effort to eliminate some cables, I thought about the AUX IN on the GT100. Did a few searches and saw you had done this in your rig. I have a few questions.....

1. Have you found any difference in the GR55 using the L/R output vs the Headphone jack to the AUX IN on the GT100 and do you use one for one thing and the other for something else? Have you noticed any advantages or dis-advantages of either? Looking at the schematic of signal flow in the GR55 manual, it looks like it should be the same signal but are the levels the same?

2. How do you have the MIDI set up? Do you just go MIDI OUT from the GT100 to MIDI IN on the GR55 or do you use MIDI OUT on the GR55 to the GT100 also. If the latter, what are you controlling in the GT100 from the GR55?

3. Have you had to do any Midi mapping to overcome the 3 patch banks of the GR55 vs the 4 patch banks of the GT100 to get patches to sync up when changing?

4. Also, is it possible to make midi mapping changes with the editors. If I go into the general midi on the editor and select programmable instead of fixed, all I get is a single bar saying changes are permanent (nothing that looks like a map)?

How is this working out for you and would you mind elaborating some if I missed a question I should be asking in regards to this setup, thanks
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

Quote1. Have you found any difference in the GR55 using the L/R output vs the Headphone jack to the AUX IN on the GT100 and do you use one for one thing and the other for something else? Have you noticed any advantages or dis-advantages of either? Looking at the schematic of signal flow in the GR55 manual, it looks like it should be the same signal but are the levels the same?

Myself - I use the headphone out jack on most of my gear all time and feed the Aux /MP3 In on my Roland Cube80XL - I got a 5 pack of robust 3.5mm TRS cables that are 20 feet long  - Sometimes i will use these from GR-55 Headphone out (using a 1/4" to 1/8" Headphone adapter) or feed my iPad Out into Cube 80XT or ZT Luchbox Amp (both have 3.5mm Aux/ MP3 inputs) Saves setup time, no need for a mixer and good enough for rock and roll at a bar gig.

Mrchevy

#2
A quote I found from Gumtown answers #3 and #4 ("I think for simplicity, it is best to leave the GR-55 midi program mapping to "Fixed" and shuffle the GR-55 user patches in the order to match the patch changes from the VG-99 (unless you are into hours of serious hit & miss program matching").
So here, just use the default settings for patch changes and rearrange patches to align, then use the assigns in the units for control changes.

Quote from: Elantric on January 16, 2014, 11:00:05 AM
Myself - I use the headphone out jack on most of my gear all time and feed the Aux /MP3 In on my Roland Cube80XL - I got a 5 pack of robust 3.5mm TRS cables that are 20 feet long  - Sometimes i will use these from GR-55 Headphone out (using a 1/4" to 1/8" Headphone adapter) or feed my iPad Out into Cube 80XT or ZT Luchbox Amp (both have 3.5mm Aux/ MP3 inputs) Saves setup time, no need for a mixer and good enough for rock and roll at a bar gig.
so in essence, it is the same which may at most require a one time quick adjustment of the main output level correct?
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#3
Quoteso in essence, it is the same which may at most require a one time quick adjustment of the main output level correct?

Last I checked most gear's Main Volume control also impacts the Heaphione out - so I use the Main Out control on my gear to achieve a "mix"

If i have a mix of battery powered gear and I know the AC power supply ( no ground loops)   -i often use one of these as my 5 channel stereo passive mixer if I have no room to carry more to the gig.


details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6471.msg44731#msg44731


Also your title is vague

do you mean Jim Williams?

Send him a PM here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=921

Jim Williams

Sorry it took so long to get back to you but I will try to answer you as best I can.

1. I have not noticed any difference between the headphone and main outs on the GR-55. You can even use them at the same time.

2. There two ways to midi up the devices one midi cable from the GT-100 to the GR-55 I prefer this for simplicity but the two in and out method enables patch changes with the S1 and S2 switches and the expression and control pedals can be used fully with both devices.

3. I prefer to use midi maping it keeps you from making multiple copies of the same patches and simplifies setting up set lists. The 3 and 4 pedal configuration makes no difference the PC messages are still the same. Fore example program 3-3 on the GR-55 and preset 3-1 are both PC 009. Setting up the midi map will be done with the GR-55 and not not the GT-100 and it is a pain but once you have done it once it is easy to make changes.

I hope this helps, I have changed my rig once again so I have been working on that for a couple days and that was the reason for my delay. Feel free to personal message me any time for any questions.

Chow! Babe.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Toby Krebs

As always Mr. Williams provides us with the best most solid advice and tips. I had been wanting answers to all these questions.

Thanks Jim!

Mrchevy

Yes, I should have been more specific but I thought Jim was the one and only   ;D . Is there a thread here on how to do this midi mapping along with the info specific to the GR55 to set this up. I can do the moving patches around thing but it would be nice to have it set up through mapping, pain in the arse I'm sure but would like to give it a shot.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

Quotes there a thread here on how to do this midi mapping along with the info specific to the GR55 to set this up.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5417.0

Mrchevy

So doing a few general searches, do I understand that I will need some kind of software to do this mapping?
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#9
Quotedo I understand that I will need some kind of software to do this mapping?

No - just wear out your finger spinning the Rotary dial on the GR-55 - This operation is done directly on the GR-55 - use a scratch pad and a pencil to keep a log of your progress, because it takes time and concentration to get it right.
Gumtown wrote>
Quote. i'm using Bome's SendSX program to receive midi data from the GR-55 and display the midi bytes on screen.
If you press any of the Sound Catagory buttons, the midi address data is shown, or if you turn the dial.

I also use the program to send data requests to the GR-55, and see what it sends back.

Try this to request the current patch from the GR-55
F0 41 10 00 00 53 11 18 00 00 00 00 00 31 34 03 F7
http://www.bome.com/products/sendsx


I suggest read other Roland Owners manuals that cover the process of MIDI Patch Receive remapping in more detail than the GR-55 manual  - like the old  VG-88 Owners manual.
Read page 70 here
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/1811457/VG-88_e5.pdf
and

Page 79 here:
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/59105308/GR-55_e04_W.pdf
PC RX SWITCH = On
Turn this "ON" if you want program change messages from an external device to switch patches. You can
use the RX BANK/PC MAP to change the correspondence between incoming program change numbers
and the GR-55's patches.


RX PC MAP = Map Select
When using program change data transmitted from an external MIDI device to switch patches on the GR-55, this setting specifies
whether the correspondence between the received program number and the patch will be fixed, or whether it can be specified
freely.


RX PC MAP = Map Select, FIX
The incoming program change data will select the predetermined patch regardless of the BANK/PC
settings.


RX PC MAP = Map Select, PROG
The patch specified by BANK/PC will be selected.

RX PC MAP = BANK, 0-63
Select the bank number (MSB 0–63) of the program change shown in the RX PC MAP (the LSB is fixed at 0)

RX PC MAP = PC, [LEAD] **-* [RHYTHM] **-* [OTHER] **-* [USER] **-*
Specify the patch number ([LEAD] 01-1–[USER] 99-3) that will correspond to each incoming program
change number (bank number).





and reread these threads
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4024.0
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5417.0

and if you succeed - shoot a video  - so I can learn!

Mrchevy

#10
Quote from: Elantric on January 17, 2014, 07:31:02 PM

and if you succeed - shoot a video  - so I can learn!

The only thing I've understood so far after reading these posts, threads, and skimming thru google search is ............SCREW IT, JUST REARRANGE THE PATCHES TO LINE UP and be done with it. Can I get an AMEN.

Watch and learn......  ;)


Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

QuoteSCREW IT, JUST REARRANGE THE PATCHES TO LINE UP and be done with it. Can I get an AMEN.

This is exactly what 90% of folks do

Jim Williams

Midi mapping on the GR-55 is pretty simple but there is a lot of scrolling with the wheel. go into your system and get into midi settings and tab over to the midi program table(RX PC MAP). change the value from fixed to program then go to your first patch PC1 (PC 001) and it should say OFF. High light it and turn the wheel to the patch that you want to come up when you receive PC 001 message. you must get the PC message from another device because if you use the GR-55 patch change it will select the patch in that location on the GR-55. do this for every patch you wish to use. remember that if you only do this for the first 5 all the patches after 5 will remain at you 005 patch.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Mrchevy

Thanks Jim, I looked thru real quick in the menu's of the GR-55 following your instructions and I think I understand the process. I will tinker with this over the weekend and if I do get it, I will try to make a video tutorial for doing this. Thinking about this though (very dangerous  ;D ),  is this not the same as moving patches around. I'm off to work right now but will think this out more later after my brain wakes up and I finish my coffee. I think I see a difference in the two but it's just not registering right now.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Toby Krebs

I spent a couple hours last night with both the  GT-10/GR55 lining up patches with no mapping and I am happy. These two units work very well together and man the layering of guitars/amps and synth tones is marvelous. I just categorize all the patches on the GT-10(rock/blues/roots/jazz/funk/metal/grunge etc...) into banks and use one patch per song on the GT-10 and GR55. One midi cable out of the GT-10 into the GR55. I did have to bust out my little Behringer mixer but a bit of e.q. is nice too.

Elantric

Ive assembled most of the useful info we all know - (included Jim's recent post) in this existing thread on this topic

GR-55 MIDI RX Patch Change MAP?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4024.msg22589#msg22589

Mrchevy

#16
OK. Here is my first questions...

1. I'm in the RX PC MAP tab (switched from FIXED to PROGRAM). The left column under BANK -0 (64 banks total and each BANK having 128 PC numbers if you scroll when Bank is highlighted) shows PC:1, PC:2, PC:3, etc. and goes down all the way to PC:128. In the second column next to each PC number it says OFF. If I highlight a particular PC number by paging down to it( down arrow button on the scroll wheel), Then turn the scroll wheel, It scrolls from OFF and continues to scroll thru all patches in the GR55 starting with the first patch in the LEAD section, then the RHYTHM section, OTHER section,and ending in the last patch in the USER section.

a) So, I assume this means that I can set any patch in the GR55 to PC:1, any patch to PC:2, any patch to PC:3, etc. (keeping in mind only the USER patches are editable), by scrolling to the patch I want in that particular PC number spot?

b) In spite of all the patches in the GR55 available, you can only map 128 of them to this bank, correct? And if you need to map more you can then go to BANK 1, BANK 2, etc. to BANK 64 for additional sets of 128 PC numbers per bank for a possible 8,192 total PC number assignments, Correct? (can't imagine EVER needing all those but for the sake of thorough understanding).

c) Can the same patch be assigned to two different PC numbers?

d) If I am 100% correct in all above (a, b, and c), do the PC numbers 1 thru 128 directly coincide with the patch numbers progressively? (ex. PC:1=01-1,  PC:2=01-2,  PC:3=01-3,  PC:4=02-1,  PC:5=02-2, etc.) ( this is correct).
Is this only for the USER bank slots since LEAD, RHYTHM, and OTHER are presets and can't be edited? ( No, these can be assigned to PC numbers also, they just can not be edited, you will have to use the preset from these categories the way they are).

Can I get a (CORRECT) or (IN CORRECT w/explanation)  for a, b, c, and d. These questions, if correct will be my notes for a tutorial video I will be working on for the forum. Thanks guys.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

gumtown

Your assumptions are all correct, the hard part is to correlate Bank and patch numbers to the GT-10/100 patches.
I would use the GT-10FxFloorBoard program to print off a list of all your user patches labelled with the GT patch/Bank numbers, and write in sequence the Bank/Patch numbers.
It can get confusing with theterm Bank used in general midi 1~128 and the Bank/Patch relation in the GR-55 3:1 and the Gt 4:1
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Jim Williams

I agree with Gummy, you are correct. I personally have never used the other banks but for some one with lots of different tones it might come in handy. make a patch list for both devices with their patch location and PC number for organization.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Mrchevy

#19
I also understand now what Gummy was talking about with the GR55 PC numbers being empty. If you go into the GT100 RX PC MAP, all the Patch numbers are listed next to their perspective PC number. In the GR55, they are OFF and need to be set via scrolling. Guess Roland figured if you want to set them, go ahead, but we ain't doin it. Ok, just a couple of more clarifications....

a) Programing the mapping in the GR55. This just tells the GR55 which patch to go to when given a midi patch change command from the GT100 (or any outside midi device) but the patches in the GR55 remain in their spots/locations within the GR55. If this is correct then does this also mean that when using the GR55 by itself (not connected to any midi) that the patch and bank changes made with the GR55's own pedals 1, 2, and 3 work normally and does not alter the patch locations or how they change.

b) mapping has nothing to do with the CTL assignments that are set up within the two units which are done with the CC#'s. CTL assignments are a separate aspect of the units.

c)So if I have say 10 patches in the GR55 that I use, any patch on the GT100 that requires one of the 10 GR55 patches that I'm using, I just have to set that GR55 patch to the GR55 PC number that the GT100 patch I select, changes it to.

Sorry if some of these sound like the same questions worded differently, typing these out is helping me think this thru. If a, b, and c, are correct, then I think thats it and I believe I've got it.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Jim Williams

Yes you are right on all 3 points. here is a tip make one patch that is blank and only sends the guitar output to the GT-100 for GT only patches.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Mrchevy

Thank you everyone for all the input and help in understanding this process. Good tip Jim, although right now I use the guitars jack output direct to the GT100. I will be working on setting up a few patches and when I've gotten comfortable with doing it I will put together a video tutorial with mucho kudo's to you guys.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

gumtown

I would double check point A)
that the GR-55 standalone patch change is the same as before the RX midi table was modified.

Something in the back of my mind alerting me on that,
or maybe it might be using the editor, some patch selections won't be the same (you will get a different one to want you think)
after the table is changed.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Mrchevy

#23
I have tinkered a little with the programming and so far so good. Point (a) that you speak of is confirmed....GR55 RX PC map set to PROGRAM....> first 4 PC numbers set to desired GR55 patches........> when GT100 is turned on and connected, it makes changes as requested. If the GT100 is either turned off or midi cable is disconnected, the GR55 patches are in their original locations and function as normal. You can also go in and change the RX PC map switch back to FIX and again all functions are normal, hooked up or not to the GT100. All settings are retained in the RX PC MAPPING under the PROGRAM settings and can be switched back and forth as desired. Also, if you want to explore and work on new patches, disconnecting the midi cable at either end lets you switch thru patches on either unit without either one switching the other. Then when done creating the basic patch combination, put the GT100 patch where you want it in your banks and set the GR55 patch in the PC number that coincides with the GT100 patch you just relocated.

This midi mapping can save you a lot of virtual real-estate if you use several different patches in the GR55 in combination with the GT100 vs duplicating several  patches in the USER section for the same patch. That being said, if you only have a few go to patches that you use then definitely the copying and relocating them where you want them is the way to go, as every time you duplicate a patch, you loose a USER patch space to save to.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Mrchevy

#24
Quote from: Jim Williams on January 18, 2014, 03:59:54 AM
Midi mapping on the GR-55 is pretty simple but there is a lot of scrolling with the wheel. go into your system and get into midi settings and tab over to the midi program table(RX PC MAP). change the value from fixed to program then go to your first patch PC1 (PC 001) and it should say OFF. High light it and turn the wheel to the patch that you want to come up when you receive PC 001 message. you must get the PC message from another device because if you use the GR-55 patch change it will select the patch in that location on the GR-55. do this for every patch you wish to use. remember that if you only do this for the first 5 all the patches after 5 will remain at your 005 patch.

Jim, I found this to be correct except, only when changing patches from the GT100. Beyond the last programed PC number were they are still OFF, those can be selected normally via the GR55 patch selection controls. I believe this is what you meant in this quote but it just didn't register. The light bulbs are coming on, I better get my sunglasses on  8). Correction, actually you can still bring up the GR55 patches via its own patch controls regardless. To clarify, The GT100 will connect you to the Mapped patch in the GR55 once programmed but the GR55 patch controls seem to work normally regardless of what is or isn't connected to it.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need