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VGuitar Central => General Discussion => Topic started by: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 12:51:00 AM

Title: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 12:51:00 AM
This was posted by Cliff Chase, who owns Fractal, on their forum.  Thought you guys might find it interesting. 

In answer to wether the Axe II would have "profiling":

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/51563-will-axe-have-profiling-2.html (http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/51563-will-axe-have-profiling-2.html)

Quote
It now has Tone Matching which is arguably the most important part of profiling.

Profiling consists of four parts:
1. Finding the input EQ.
2. Finding the "shape" and bias point of the nonlinear transfer function.
3. Finding the output EQ.
4. Finding the compression, or sag, characteristics.

The Axe-Fx II with V6 uses a hybrid modeling/profiling approach. The Axe-Fx modeling is much more complex in that it does not use a single waveshaper with adjustable shape and bias point. It uses multiple dynamic nonlinearities including preamp and power amp modeling. Profilers distill everything down to a single static waveshaper and then adjust the shape (probably a x+k/x-k waveshaper) and bias point of that waveshaper to try and match the measured transfer function. They then find the input and output EQ and the compression.

With V6 the Axe-Fx II uses a combination of modeling and profiling. The amps are modeled using our exclusive multiple dynamic nonlinearities that very accurately replicate actual tube triodes and our new power amp modeling which fully recreates the behavior of a tube power amp and output transformer. The models are then refined by applying test tones to the actual amp to find deviations between the real amp and the model. For example, traditional circuit based modeling cannot account for things like parasitics since these are not represented by the schematic. So we now augment our traditional circuit modeling with measurements from the actual amp and store that data in the model.

With Tone Matching you can morph a model to match other amps. This works best if the model and amp are similar.

There are numerous advantages to this approach. These advantages include full control matching. The drive, tone, etc. controls behave just like the real amp. You're not just getting a snapshot of the amp at some setting. Another advantage is full separability of the amp from the cabinet. Due to inseparability of linear responses, profiling lumps the amplifier output with the cab response. The multiple nonlinearities also capture the complexities of amps that rely on both preamp and power amp distortion. Single waveshaper approaches cannot capture the complex interactions of multiple distorting stages and the concomitant duty-cycle modulation, EQ modulation (which produces note bloom and swirl) and the vagaries of feel.

The one disadvantage is that you only get the amps that we have modeled. If you have an amp that is very unique that we haven't modeled then Tone Matching may not fully capture the essence of that amp. Profiling allows you to capture that amp at your favorite settings with your favorite cab. Another disadvantage is that modeling is very labor intensive. We have to enter all the circuit data, measure the control tapers, verify the model accuracy and then apply all the fancy test tones and capture the refinement data.



In response for a wish list request for a sine sweep tone:

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/51607-sine-sweep-test-tone-tma-block-better-nearly-perfect-amp-matching-2.html (http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/51607-sine-sweep-test-tone-tma-block-better-nearly-perfect-amp-matching-2.html)



QuoteThe third voice of the synth was added for this reason. Connect an LFO to the Freq parameter and use it to sweep the DUT and the amp block at the same time.

Pink noise also works very well.


Further in to the same thread:


QuoteThere's a bunch of other tricks you can do. When I catch up on a few pressing things I'll do some tutorials. For example, you can do near full "profiling" using a two-step process. Capture the output EQ with the Tone Match block at high excitation levels. Export that to a cab IR. Add the cab block after the amp. Reduce the excitation level way down so that the reference amp and the model are operating in the linear (or near-linear) region. Do another Tone Match. Move the Tone Match block before the amp block. Now you have a fully profiled amp.

wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

BTW, using this method with the sine wave, models can be easily shared.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 12:57:17 AM
Here's a video tutorial on tone matching.

http://youtu.be/2Zj-lzxzjnM (http://youtu.be/2Zj-lzxzjnM)
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: LeeMorant on April 30, 2012, 04:47:40 AM
That's pretty cool, in an ideal world I'd own both :)  In this world I just downloaded the mesa JP presets from rig exchange and tweaked the treble a bit, job done.   I wish I had more money  :P
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: musicman65 on April 30, 2012, 08:25:32 AM
As Cliff states...its MODELED AMP MORPHING not PROFILING. So you take pre-modeled amp and apply an eq patch derived from a ferquency sweep of a real amp to morph the tone to something closer to what you want. That's a great feature. I suspect he's feeling the heat from the KPA and providing features to keep Axe users from migrating.

The Kemper forum is loaded with Axe users....the general consensus is that the KPA does what is does best....PROFILE. The Axe does what it does best....MODEL AMPS and FX.

I'm not an Axe user so I can't say how real their MODELING is....better than other modelers, I am sure. I can say that my KPA is so real, its dejavu. I profilled a few of my amps and its unbelievable how accurately it captured the essence and soul. I can feel the tubes....or something. Pretty magical whatever it is.

We live in exciting times in the digital music realm. The fact that I can download a profile of another user's actual 1959 Fender Bassman head and cabinet and get that same mojo with the press of a button is just awesome!

Add alt tuning, guitar modeling, and G2M synth from Roland and my tone toolbox is complete! I'm still working on my VG / KPA setup but excited with the esults so far.

bd


Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Jim Williams on April 30, 2012, 08:46:47 AM
From what I have herd I think that amp profiling thing is a useless technology and the Axe-FX II is the way to go. After seeing this video I would never even consider a profiler amp over the Axe-FX.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on April 30, 2012, 08:54:13 AM
QuoteFrom what I have herd I think that amp profiling thing is a useless technology and the Axe-FX II is the way to go. After seeing this video I would never even consider a profiler amp over the Axe-FX.

Excellent - this advice helps keep the Kemper Profiling Amp my go to secret weapon for real tube amp tone a bit longer.


EQ Matching is a powerful tool, but you cant re - EQ a JC-120 to sound like a Dumble.

At the end of the day, I prefer to play through gear that breaths and has life and responds to my playing style - and the KPA does all that and more.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on April 30, 2012, 09:01:27 AM
"From what I have herd I think that amp profiling thing is a useless technology"

WTF?????
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: germanicus on April 30, 2012, 10:00:45 AM
I have neither an axe-fx 2 or a kemper (yet), but both seem like viable options.

Looks like the axe has more effects capabilities.

The kemper sounds amazing, but i dont have alot of interest in running around profiling specific amps.
I would rather have a kemper that just loads in others profiles at a lower cost from the online library.

Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on April 30, 2012, 10:19:45 AM
I have almost 1300 profiles loaded in from the user group!
Yikes, that is a LOT of amps.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Kevin M on April 30, 2012, 10:44:51 AM
Also, doesn't the KPA already come 'stock' with a number of profiles preloaded?
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on April 30, 2012, 11:21:42 AM
All I can say is owning the KPA has been my top rewarding experience post purchase. No regrets,  and the quality and playing response of the real amp profiles shared by the active KPA community are excellent.  I no longer desire to borrow my friends real Dumble ODS, as my KPA already has that amp covered.

Edit : above was true in April 2012 when bulk of Kemper profiles were very good

However today you must wade through lots of junk/ useless Kemper profiles in the shared repository online before you find a good one.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: aliensporebomb on April 30, 2012, 12:03:56 PM
How many profiles can you store?  I know with VG-99 there's only 200 user savable presets and sometimes wading thru all of those to get the right sounds can be a little challenging if you're in a hurry but if you can store over a thousand it gets to be like satellite tv!  How do you deal with all of those presets in a gig or recording situation?  "Oh, wait, I've got that Dumble ODS here somewhere, preset 1138 I think..."
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on April 30, 2012, 12:16:32 PM
Suggest watch the youtube videos, yes the KPA can store all those profiles, and it uses a normal USB thumb drive for getting the profiles into the  KPA

Each profile is under 4k size, and there is an efficient browser built into the KPA,  so plenty can be on tap at the session.

1000 KPA profiles can be stored inside the KPA.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on April 30, 2012, 12:19:17 PM
Todd
You can take your favorite profiles and put them in a quick menu that only shows those profiles.
I also save all mine with the letter V in front so I just jump to the V,s and there they all are.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: imall41 on April 30, 2012, 01:20:37 PM
Quote from: Elantric on April 30, 2012, 08:54:13 AM
Excellent - this advice helps keep the Kemper Profiling Amp my go to secret weapon for real tube amp tone a bit longer.
;)
And, as much as I would love to keep it a secret also, the more who experience this box, and become part of the KPA community, the faster the updates will come.

Granted, I am still in the honeymoon phase with my KPA, but this is the longest this phase has lasted with any piece of gear I have owned.
This is the first time, in my obsessive search for tone, that I have lost all desire to look any further.
Yes, it has some bugs, but there is nothing to be fixed in the main purpose of why it exists, which is to sound, and feel like you are playing a tube amp, which it does now, bugs and all.
There are also many users who  say, they haven't had one problem in over two months of constant use.
Either way, I have no doubt, that within a year, Mr Kemper, and his team, will have this thing firing on all twelve cylinders.
Especially, considering the speed that firmware updates have been released already.
It's literally like a dream come true. I can leave my house with my KPA lunchbox slung over my shoulder, guitar in one hand, and powered speaker in the other, and setup and play anywhere, and not wish that I could have brought more with me.
(of course, the GR-55 was already in the car :-)
I apologize if I'm sounding fanboyish, but I just felt the need to chime in here.
For me, this box is truly a game changer.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: aliensporebomb on April 30, 2012, 02:46:07 PM
It sure would be nice to be able to leave my mesa studio preamp at home but take a "replica" of it in a lightweight box to a gig or session.  I've gotten really close with the VG-99 I must admit but it's not 100%, most like 94-96%.  Close enough for most to not be able to tell the difference.  I definetely need to try one of those out but I hear it's like when Al DiMeola tried a ferrari - it was fun but then he had to have one!  Just what I need, more expensive music gear!
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Charles5150 on April 30, 2012, 02:50:32 PM
I've been an Axe Ultra user during two years. It's a great piece of gear, I really liked it, wouldn't say it's like the real thing, but in terms of portability and use in gigs and studio to me was a great solution. The routing posibilities are far beyond VG-99 or KPA.

But......

It's not plug and play at all, you have to spend lot of time tweaking to get the tone you want. I'm as confortable tweaking as playing, but can understand some friends of mine who don't like to tweak at all.

I reached some great tones after hours of equalizing, some CAE superstrat tones:

http://soundcloud.com/charles5150/isthislove (http://soundcloud.com/charles5150/isthislove)

Even close into Eddie territory:

http://soundcloud.com/charles5150/mean-street (http://soundcloud.com/charles5150/mean-street)

So, you can get nice tones with it you are into spend lot of time on it.

The big BUT came when they announced the AxeFxII, then I realized that I would be in the waiting list during months, and I felt really dependable on it. So, I sold my Ultra in November and got back to the analog world, using a HK Tubemeister and analog pedals for gigs and the VG99 for rehearshalls.

First time I heard about the KPA, I though it was the same convolution thing again. Kind of a "make-your-own-amps" pod. Then, some videos convinced me that it's a different thing, specially the Nasville session one, to me it sounded amazing. And, most important, you don't have to be a sound or IT engineer, it's plug and play.

On the other way, Fractal, who always laughed about profiling, now make the pathetic move to sell customers some thing that appears to be profiling but has nothing to do with it, and they call it "tone-matching". Come on, tone matching is EQ matching, some thing you could do with a lot of DAW plugins around there, it's about compairing two eq curves, and deduce what eq moves you have to apply to the first curve to sound like the second one. I myself applied this technique to get some tones in my Ultra months ago before the II tone-matching.

The truth is YOU DON'T NEED TO BUY AN AXE-II TO DO TONE MATCHING at all. But nowadays the Fractal world is so biased that it doesn't matter what old thing with a new name they come with, or if they call tone-matching or magical-mojo or whatever, they are into buying it eyes ( and ears ) closed.

I'm saving money to buy a Kemper ( it's a click away from any major store, f*** the waiting lists ) and very excited about it. I want to think in terms of melody, harmony and rythmn instead of eq, compressors....









Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 04:45:39 PM
I knew this one would be contentious.

I can't believe anyone on this forum complaining the AFX isn't plug and play.  There's nothing plug and play about the VG-99 or the GR-55 or any other Roland VG or GR product.  My Ultra was far easier to get a good tone out of than my VG-99.  When I compared my best Ultra patches to my best 99 patches, the Ultra won hands down when it came to amps and effects.  The II is a whole other beast.  The first 40 stock patches are all extremely usable amp and stomp box patches.  Starting from an empty program in the II, I can get any guitar/effect setup, gig ready, in less than half the time it takes in the VG-99 and the final product walks all over the VG version in terms of sound, feel, flexibility, you name it...

Keep in mind that the video I posted is only a tone match to an iso track, not to an amp.  If you read through what Cliff wrote you'll see that step 2 is where the Kemper and AFX differ the most.  Whereas Kemper is using a static waveshaper, the II is using it's amp models. 

One of the biggest thing that stands out to me with the Kemper, which you can easily see in that long UK video test someone posted, is that a player experienced with tube amps can feel which is real and which is the Kemper every time.  One of the other things is that in every test I have seen, when they try to make adjustments to a profile, it has always worsened the sound considerably. 


Quote from: musicman65 on April 30, 2012, 08:25:32 AM
As Cliff states...its MODELED AMP MORPHING not PROFILING. So you take pre-modeled amp and apply an eq patch derived from a ferquency sweep of a real amp to morph the tone to something closer to what you want. That's a great feature. I suspect he's feeling the heat from the KPA and providing features to keep Axe users from migrating.


Actually if you read through what he's saying, the point is whatever name you call it, it still follows those same 4 steps.  They're both doing the same thing.  The Kemper simply has a different step 2 which is setting the shape and bias point of the static waveshaper.  The Kemper also has the speaker's influence mixed in.  With the II, making the speaker IR can be a separate step which means the amp could be separated from the speaker so that you could actually have a modelled amp that you could switch cabs on. 

I don't think he's feeling any heat.  He can't make them fast enough.  They've only recently been able to occasionally keep them in stock in the US.  There are still long waiting lists throughout the rest of the world.  It's becoming a bit of a standard for touring acts.  Not sure what heat you're referring to. 

BTW, people have started to tone match guitars as well as amps.  Check the Fractal forum.

Here's an electric with a piezo matched to an acoustic.

http://soundcloud.com/antcarrier/acoustic-simulation-2 (http://soundcloud.com/antcarrier/acoustic-simulation-2)

Strat to SG

http://soundcloud.com/zentman/sg-pup-capture (http://soundcloud.com/zentman/sg-pup-capture)

Viola

http://soundcloud.com/zentman/viola (http://soundcloud.com/zentman/viola)
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on April 30, 2012, 05:37:57 PM
Quote"One of the biggest thing that stands out to me with the Kemper, which you can easily see in that long UK video test someone posted, is that a player experienced with tube amps can feel which is real and which is the Kemper every time.  One of the other things is that in every test I have seen, when they try to make adjustments to a profile, it has always worsened the sound considerably."

There is A BIG reason he can tell every time and I almost wrote them about it.
ANYONE with half an ear can tell which is which while in the profile mode.
There is a latency to the profiled sound that disappears when you go back to the normal play mode.
He feels the latency in the profile mode and its a giveaway.
That's the feel difference.
They should have set up an A/B in the normal play mode and he would have been scratching his head wondering what was what..

Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: A2theT on April 30, 2012, 08:50:31 PM
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 30, 2012, 09:01:27 AM
"From what I have herd I think that amp profiling thing is a useless technology"

WTF?????

Well I think his comment may have come off a little harsh but I've said this before.  I have no requirement for the ability to profile amps so the feature is useless to me but we will all benefit from the technology.  I have minimal amps to profile.  I have no access to amps that need profiling.  As you've mentioned you have 1300 profiled amps.  Holy crap!.

I just need a unit that allows me to play with them.  I'd love to have a mini-kemper (non profiling version )and an Axe-Fx!

BTW, I noticed now with the release of Fractals v6.0 firmware they're sold out of Axe-Fx II's again...
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Kevin M on April 30, 2012, 10:14:59 PM
This thread has deteriorated sufficiently!  :-).

Pick the tool, or tools that work best for YOU!
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: musicman65 on April 30, 2012, 11:22:25 PM
Quote from: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 04:45:39 PM
I can't believe anyone on this forum complaining the AFX isn't plug and play.  There's nothing plug and play about the VG-99 or the GR-55 or any other Roland VG or GR product. 

Maybe I misinterpreted what he wrote but I think he was saying he had returned to stomps and amps recently and the AxeFX was complex whereas the Kemper is generally plug and play so it appealed more to him. I personally don't mind complex systems with lots of options.

Quote from: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 04:45:39 PM
Actually if you read through what he's saying, the point is whatever name you call it, it still follows those same 4 steps.  They're both doing the same thing.  The Kemper simply has a different step 2 which is setting the shape and bias point of the static waveshaper.  The Kemper also has the speaker's influence mixed in.  With the II, making the speaker IR can be a separate step which means the amp could be separated from the speaker so that you could actually have a modelled amp that you could switch cabs on. 

Step 2 is the voodoo. That's where the KPA captures the amps waveform and dynamic idiosyncrasies that make it organic. That incudes the variable response to a non-linear load (the speaker cab). An unloaded (or resistive load) poweramp has a different response than one driving a speaker. Everthing in the chain from input to the grill on the cab are part of the profile.

Yet Kemper still can seperate cabs from amps...That's a basic feature of the KPA. Each profile is an amp AND cab. You can save the amp or cab separately, mix, match, exchange with other users. Different test processes are used to derive this separation. Its way more than a sine wave sweep.

Quote from: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 04:45:39 PM
I don't think he's feeling any heat.  He can't make them fast enough.  They've only recently been able to occasionally keep them in stock in the US.  There are still long waiting lists throughout the rest of the world.  It's becoming a bit of a standard for touring acts.  Not sure what heat you're referring to. 

Cliff is a businessman. If he hasn't noticed the new kid on the block that has a feature the he is now emulating in his product...I'd be concerned. Its healthy competition and that's the heat I refer to. We all benefit from that. Hey, maybe if the Kemper gains ground and the AxeFX waiting list gets shorter, the price will go down. No one would fuss over that!


Quote from: onemoreguitar on April 30, 2012, 04:45:39 PM
BTW, people have started to tone match guitars as well as amps.  Check the Fractal forum.
Here's an electric with a piezo matched to an acoustic.

Bill Ruppert posted a KPA profile of an acoustic simulator a few days on the Rig Exchange. This whole profiling/tone matching idea is going to create advances we haven't imagined yet....

I think we all agree both products are innovative and either can yield very musical tones in the hands of a creative player. Nuff said!

Exciting times for the digital musician!

bd
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Charles5150 on May 01, 2012, 05:14:39 AM
Quote from: musicman65 on April 30, 2012, 11:22:25 PM

Exciting times for the digital musician!

bd

Absolutely !
Competition = Options = Better tones = Lower prices
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on May 01, 2012, 07:44:50 AM
After all of that.....
I still adore my VG-99 and GR-55.
They are ALWAYS by my side and always will be!
Untouchable.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: cynegetic on May 01, 2012, 03:27:21 PM
Stop looking at me, swan!!
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on May 01, 2012, 07:18:45 PM
???????
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: paults on May 01, 2012, 09:20:24 PM
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on May 01, 2012, 07:18:45 PM
???????

Its from a 1995 movie (I haven't seen it, either..)


Billy Madison: Shampoo is better. I go on first and clean the hair. Conditioner is better. I leave the hair silky and smooth. Oh, really, fool? Really.
[Notices gold swan on edge of tub]
Billy Madison: Stop looking at me, swan.

Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on May 01, 2012, 09:39:31 PM
Quote from: paults on May 01, 2012, 09:20:24 PM
Its from a 1995 movie (I haven't seen it, either..)


Billy Madison: Shampoo is better. I go on first and clean the hair. Conditioner is better. I leave the hair silky and smooth. Oh, really, fool? Really.
[Notices gold swan on edge of tub]
Billy Madison: Stop looking at me, swan.

Thanks Paul....
????
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: onemoreguitar on May 01, 2012, 11:51:42 PM
Veronica Vaughn.....So hot...Want to touch the heiney. 

------------------

CF:That Veronica Vaughn is one piece of aaasse. I know from experience dude, if you know what I mean...

AS: No you don't.

CF: Well, not me personally, but a guy I know... him and her got.. it.. on.. WOOOEEEE

AS:No they didn't.

CF: No, no, no they didn't. But you could imagine what it'd be like if they did right? Huh? HUHHH?

awkward pause...

CF:Everybody on.. GOOD!! GREAT!!! GRAND!!! WONDERFUL!!!....  NO YELLING ON THE BUS!!!!!

----------------------------
Eric: Where the hell is he?.. I'm starving.

Carl: I ate some Triscut crackers in the car. You should have had some.

Eric: Well.. maybe if you'd told me there were delicious Triscut crackers I could have enjoyed them with you.

Carl: I'm sorry.

Eric: Well.. sorry doesn't put the Triscut crackers in my stomach, now does it Carl?
----------------------


I'll stop there.  I reckon I can quote that movie line for line from start to finish. 

For the record..I left a couple laughs out...  :-)
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: musicman65 on May 02, 2012, 06:50:42 AM
Grandma always told me.... "An idle mind is the Devil's playground" LOL!

I could never find the time to memorize a whole movie....I can't even remember lyrics...(but can remember musical passages with no effort...???)

bd
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: gumtown on May 02, 2012, 01:20:06 PM
You've lost me on this one  ????

I guess you had to bee there..
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: A2theT on May 02, 2012, 01:56:20 PM
wow! holy hijack!
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: aliensporebomb on May 02, 2012, 03:01:53 PM
Elantric: if you want to bring this post to another thread go right ahead but .....

So I hear Les Paul's estate is up for sale (at least the stuff the family doesn't want):
http://www.juliensauctions.com/images/auctions/2012/les-paul/flipbook/icatalog.html (http://www.juliensauctions.com/images/auctions/2012/les-paul/flipbook/icatalog.html)

How is this relevant to vguitarforums?  He has three Casio synth guitars and two Les Pauls with hex pickups and 24-pin Roland connectivity and GR style controls as well as two Les Paul HDX digital guitars in the collection (warning, 400 page PDF - you could be looking and dreaming for quite a while).  Among other stuff.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Kevin M on May 02, 2012, 09:27:31 PM
Maybe time to end this thread as it's gotten WAY off the original topic lately.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: fuzzfactory on May 02, 2012, 11:51:49 PM
all i can say thanks to this thread i now must have a kemper and i don't even play "normal" guitar anymore but damn the gearslut in me says i need 2 grand soon
thanks guys...at least the wife agrees after she watched the vids  :)
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: tekrytor on May 03, 2012, 12:19:39 AM
She's a keeper!
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: randyrocker on June 06, 2012, 10:12:00 AM
all I can say guys is I have the Axe-FX II the Avid Eleven Rack and a LIne 6 HD 500 and every single computer plugin for guitar..

They all have merits some tones on the HD500 are better than the Axe but see the prob with that forum is simple they are arrogant SOB's they think that the Axe-FX series is the end all
little do they realize its just the beginning... when I go out to play locally only thing I bring with me is my amp the HD500 and the GR55.. and of course whatever guitar I choose I have several GK3's now
so I would never bring the Axe FXII out live too much work and the sound quality is not worth it and to be frank for what I play mostly now adays Nashville stuff it dont matter what I use...
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on June 06, 2012, 10:25:20 AM
Rule #1 at Live gigs - people hear with their eyes.

Give them a show, and nobody will care that your DSP tube amp emulator failed to nail the same dynamics as a real tube amp.


When I play live, my gear choice criteria is mostly based upon:

1) Will it fit in the Car?

2) Does it offer swift setup and tear down?

3) Does it allow me to flow with the Music, and provide a good show  - and not force me to think about math, which preset bank am I on, muted gaps during each patch change - those are deal breakers for me.

4) What you are capable of expressing on the guitar using only your fingers will always trump whatever "new sound" the latest toy adds to the show.


Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: A2theT on June 06, 2012, 02:38:37 PM
@Elantric - Well said.  I concur 100% regarding live. 

I was just at a show a few weeks ago where the guitar player for an 80's metal cover band was fumbling through his axe fx during sound check and he leaned over to me on the stage and said, "omg I wish I had of just brought my trusty GSP-1101".  Not slamming the axe-fx but familiarity + simplicity = success.

One time I went to a jam with some old friends.  I had this crazy setup, GNX3000 + POD X3Live + A/B/Y and multiple guitars and I was switching between the gear for different presets I used for different songs....it was quite a gong show.  Patch levels were not equal, it was a pain.  Theres something to be said for a decent guitar and combo amp.  i.e. Les Paul and an Evil Robot....... 

my two cents
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: DF400 on June 06, 2012, 06:54:53 PM
I'm chiming in late in this post, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents:

I gig at least once a week and own a variety of amps. However, as of late I have been hauling around too much gear. During the last gigs I used my Splawn Quickrod, with the AxeFx Ultra for effects. I am now rethinking my set up. The AxeFx, along with a midi foot controller is more than enough gear to cover just about any cover song. Although personally, for playing my own material, I prefer the Splawn - which sounds amazing. But the fact is that we play covers - and for covers, close is good enough.

Although I have not tried the Kemper, I'm sure it does a great job. That said, few - if anyone in the audience are going to give a rat's ass what you are playing through. I think it's all about projecting and performing. Equally important is setting up volume levels to be consistent and fall nicely in the mix.

I'm happy with the AxeFx, and I'm sure I would also be happy with the Kemper. My priorities have changed though - a minimalist approach is definitely the way to go!
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: mbenigni on June 07, 2012, 07:34:23 AM
I recently picked up a Kemper.  I've never come within a square mile of an AxeFX, but I'm always impressed with what I read about them, and that hasn't changed one bit.

I think people miss the point by getting too caught up in the whole p***ing contest as to which product's tones are better/ more authentic.  The fact is their tone engines represent two totally different paradigms, and inevitably there will be strengths and weaknesses in each.  From what I understand they both sound amazing (I can vouch for the KPA myself) and there is always going to be the gray area where opinions vary.

More important, IMO, is the fact that they bring two completely different feature sets to the table: The AxeFX is more adaptable, more programmable, offers deeper routing and effects options, etc.  The Kemper is a bit more specialized/ purpose-built.  It aims to profile a specific amp's behavior without getting the user too bogged down in the component algorithms that determine that behavior.  It's not as programmable, but conversely it exposes what is programmable by way of a sensible UI with lots of conventional, mechanical controls.  As I see it, even if the KPA and Axe sounded identical (and they can probably be made to sound damn close), the experience of using them is completely different, and so each will best suit different needs and applications.  Buy what you need.

Personally, I'm finding it refreshing that the most technically advanced modeling amp I've ever owned has me tweaking less than I ever have.  This is counter-intuitive at first glance, but when a digital amp delivers on the promise of behaving like a tube amp, you can stop thinking like an engineer and finally start thinking like "normal" guitarists have been thinking for the last 50 years or so.  And oh what I've been missing...  :)  (But now's their turn to catch on to the fact that I just bought 1000 amps and they bought 1 LOL.)
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Kevin M on June 07, 2012, 10:50:09 AM
Quote from: mbenigni on June 07, 2012, 07:34:23 AM
I recently picked up a Kemper.  I've never come within a square mile of an AxeFX, but I'm always impressed with what I read about them, and that hasn't changed one bit.

I think people miss the point by getting too caught up in the whole p***ing contest as to which product's tones are better/ more authentic.  The fact is their tone engines represent two totally different different paradigms, and inevitably there will be strengths and weaknesses in each.  From what I understand they both sound amazing (I can vouch for the KPA myself) and there is always going to be the gray area where opinions vary.

More important, IMO, is the fact that they bring two completely different feature sets to the table: The AxeFX is more adaptable, more programmable, offers deeper routing and effects options, etc.  The Kemper is a bit more specialized/ purpose-built.  It aims to profile a specific amp's behavior without getting the user too bogged down in the component algorithms that determine that behavior.  It's not as programmable, but conversely it exposes what is programmable by way of a sensible UI with lots of conventional, mechanical controls.  As I see it, even if the KPA and Axe sounded identical (and they can probably be made to sound damn close), the experience of using them is completely different, and so each will best suit different needs and applications.  Buy what you need.

Personally, I'm finding it refreshing that the most technically advanced modeling amp I've ever owned has me tweaking less than I ever have.  This is counter-intuitive at first glance, but when a digital amp delivers on the promise of behaving like a tube amp, you can stop thinking like an engineer and finally start thinking like "normal" guitarists have been thinking for the last 50 years or so.  And oh what I've been missing...  :)  (But now's their turn to catch on to the fact that I just bought 1000 amps and they bought 1 LOL.)

Well said!

As someone who writes original music I find myself distracted sometimes when having to edit patches for long periods of time just to dial in something that fits.

As always, though, use the tool that serves your purpose.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: tekrytor on June 07, 2012, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: Elantric on June 06, 2012, 10:25:20 AM
Rule #1 at Live gigs - people hear with their eyes.

Give them a show, and nobody will care that your DSP tube amp emulator failed to nail the same dynamics as a real tube amp.


When I play live, my gear choice criteria is mostly based upon:

1) Will it fit in the Car?

2) Does it offer swift setup and tear down?

3) Does it allow me to flow with the Music, and provide a good show  - and not force me to think about math, which preset bank am I on, muted gaps during each patch change - those are deal breakers for me.

4) What you are capable of expressing on the guitar using only your fingers will always trump whatever "new sound" the latest toy adds to the show.

Dead right on all counts!
If you're exhausted and frustrated from hauling and setting up a heavy and complex rig, you will be distracted and it detracts from your performance. Keeping things simple is a definate assert.

]
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: aliensporebomb on June 08, 2012, 05:25:02 AM
I keep thinking about using a digital projector with space or psychedelic images on the wall at my next gig.  Not even sure how I'd put the images together but it would be neat if I could use the V-Link to make the graphics happeen by playing.  That way they wouldn't look at the funny looking guy with the guitar but they'd be seeing a SHOW.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on June 08, 2012, 09:48:13 AM
QuoteI keep thinking about using a digital projector with space or psychedelic images on the wall at my next gig.  Not even sure how I'd put the images together but it would be neat if I could use the V-Link to make the graphics happeen by playing.

Read the V-Link threads - many important video tools and concepts  are presented there:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=39.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=39.0)

Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: DF400 on June 08, 2012, 10:33:08 PM
Another recommendation on the visual topic is G-Force. It's a visualizer program that can use various signal input options. You can design your own wave shapes and ColorMaps combinations. I use it with a projector and a live signal from the board - works awesome. It's cheap too - I think I paid 29.00. You could also explore using CellDNA, which is a great program.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Bill Ruppert on June 09, 2012, 12:34:32 PM



Todd that would be VERY cool!
People would remember that.

Quote from: aliensporebomb on June 08, 2012, 05:25:02 AM
I keep thinking about using a digital projector with space or psychedelic images on the wall at my next gig.  Not even sure how I'd put the images together but it would be neat if I could use the V-Link to make the graphics happeen by playing.  That way they wouldn't look at the funny looking guy with the guitar but they'd be seeing a SHOW.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on November 26, 2015, 11:18:49 AM
Old thread. Just wanted to update that I now have a Axe-FXii+ with MFC-101 foot controller, and for live use I find its far more versatile as the nucleus of a full live guitar system compared to the "all in one" approach of the Kemper.(meaning the KPA remains very limited for controlling third party  gear)
After 4 years Kemper still has miles to go to match the  MIDI Control provided by AXE--FX +MFC-101, or even the GT-100.
Very few companies market products with the right mix of third party control capabilities, and the Axe Fx is at the top.

Read the Fractal Owners Manuals to discover the power of these systems
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: gibvictory on November 29, 2015, 01:35:40 PM
Congratulations. Needless to say with all your expertise you will not be disappointed with the Axe FX. I've never had the MFC controller but it seemed to have limited flexibility for what I wanted. I went with the Liquid Foot Controller. The Fractal Forum community is top notch, as it is here, and will be your friend. Good luck.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on November 30, 2015, 12:52:03 PM
QuoteI've never had the MFC controller but it seemed to have limited flexibility for what I wanted.


Curious what were the limitations you had with the MFC-101?

(I'm hard pressed to find any MIDi foot controller more powerful than the MFC-101 - outside an RJM Mastermind )

http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-mfc-101-midi-foot-controller.php (http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-mfc-101-midi-foot-controller.php)

MFC-101 - Owners Manual
http://www.fractalaudio.com/downloads/manuals/mfc-101/MFC-101-Owners-Manual.pdf (http://www.fractalaudio.com/downloads/manuals/mfc-101/MFC-101-Owners-Manual.pdf)

The Fractal Audio Systems MFC-101 Mark III is a powerful, versatile, easy-to-use MIDI foot controller designed for
use with the Fractal Audio Systems Axe-Fx II, Ultra, or Standard, or any other MIDI devices such as modules, amps,
effects, synths, and more. It is built with the touring pro in mind, featuring a rugged 16-gauge powder-coated steel
chassis, 21 heavy-duty "Solid State" footswitches, which are both more durable and quieter than traditional
footswitches, a brilliant 20-character transflective display, 21 dual-color LEDs, jacks for 4 expression pedals and 4
external switches, and the performance control features that musicians demand from a best-in-class controller. In
AXE-FX MODE, the MFC-101 is the best and easiest way to control an Axe-Fx, with hassle-free integration of preset
names, intelligent control over effect bypass switching, integrated tap tempo and tuner, and more, including
"Scenes" support and a dedicated Looper Control Mode for the Axe-Fx II. The MFC-101 "Mark II" added a rugged
"EtherCON" -type connector for interfacing with the Axe-Fx II. The "Mark III" adds FASLink™, a new XLR connector
type for connecting to the Axe-Fx II via an optional XA-1 adapter, plus "Solid State Switching," with switches that
are extremely failure resistant and quiet in comparison to typical guitar stomp switches.
MFC-101 FEATURE HIGHLIGHTS
! Simple to set up and use, while powerful and flexible enough to control complex rigs.
! PRESET, SONG, and SET MODES are well-suited for a range of performance settings.
! The onboard memory stores 384 Presets, 100 Songs, and 10 Sets of up to 50 Songs each.
! Globally designate any number of footswitches for selecting PRESETS, each of which contains:
• Up to 16 MIDI program change messages (one per channel).
• ON or OFF states for up to 17 Instant Access Switches.
• ON or OFF states for up to 17 Internal Control Change ("CC") messages.
• Up to 16 bytes of custom MIDI data. Anything goes!
! Footswitches not assigned to Presets operate as INSTANT ACCESS ("IA") SWITCHES:
• Axe-Fx functions may be assigned to IA Switches simply by selecting from a list.
• "General Use" IA Switches (i.e. those not assigned to Axe-Fx functions) have independent ON and OFF
command sets, each with:
o Up to two CC# messages with custom values
o One MIDI program change command
o Up to 16 bytes of custom MIDI data. Anything goes!
• IA Switches may be set for Toggle (aka "Latching") , Momentary ("Hold") or "Auto-Off" function.
! REVEAL mode temporarily toggles Preset footswitches to their "hidden" Instant Access functions.
! Axe-Fx LOOPER CONTROL MODE gives access to all Looper functions with no programming required.
! Full support for Axe-Fx II SCENES
! Future enhancement and improvement made possible via user-upgradeable firmware capability.
! Can be powered by its own AC Adapter, by Phantom 7-pin MIDI, or by CAT5/XLR connection to Axe-Fx II.
! And more....
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: vanceg on November 30, 2015, 05:36:10 PM
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 30, 2012, 12:19:17 PM
Todd
You can take your favorite profiles and put them in a quick menu that only shows those profiles.
I also save all mine with the letter V in front so I just jump to the V,s and there they all are.

Hey - That's what I do with all my presets...but my name is Vance, so "V-Distortion" makes sense.... what's your excuse, mr. "B"?   ;)
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: gibvictory on December 01, 2015, 02:22:56 PM
Elantric, if I could take back the MFC part of my post I would. The only things I preferred the Liquid Foot over the MFC were the individual displays over each button and I could place scene or I/A buttons wherever I wanted. The twelve button Liquid Foot also has a smaller footprint. I am positive if the MFC were the only controller available I would be more than happy with it. Wish you lots of enjoyment with your new purchase. I would be interested to hear what else you will integrate into your Axe FX rig. I've kept mine pretty simple. Axe Fx, Gr55, power amp and a Matrix NL12 cab. The cab is a traditional guitar cab but goes upward to 20,000 hz. That's good enough for playing piezo acoustic and GR patches for onstage monitoring. It weighs only 16 lbs.
Title: Re: Axe-FX II vs Kemper: Fractal's Comments
Post by: Elantric on December 01, 2015, 02:59:19 PM
QuoteI would be interested to hear what else you will integrate into your Axe FX rig. I

I've never had just "one rig" - I have a few pedal boards and many amps  - along with my DSP Modeling gear.


Each one has strengths. Its hard to store it all at times, but I've found that 6 weeks after i sell something, is too often the day i really need that old tool I reluctantly sold 

But it does provide myself a bit more perspective and incite on strengths and weakness of many products