RC-50 and GR-20 Signal Chain

Started by ASlave2Audio, August 25, 2012, 09:09:59 PM

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ASlave2Audio

Hi,
Not sure if this should be with a GR-20 discussion or RC-50. But basically what I am trying to do is loop my guitar signal and FX into the RC-50 to then output to my amp, while also looping my GR-20 synth sounds but sending the output to my monitors. I also would like the drum sampler to output to my monitors.
No matter how much a tinker with connections I can't seem to split these signals.
Is this even possible?
..Sorry if I'm in the wrong section
Thanks!

shawnb

#1
Welcome aboard!

Sorry, but no, you cannot route the different input signals to different outputs.   It's as if the 3 input sources (Aux, Inst, Mic) are mixed & treated as one signal.  There are a few threads here in the Loopers discussion where folks propose switching mechanisms; I don't actually know if any were successful.   We've been using the term 'input routing' in these threads to describe this feature.

Though switching is feasible, I just felt I would mess it up at the wrong time...  So I just use the RC50 (and now my RC300) for one instrument.   

By the way, the Pigtronix Infinity Looper's promotional materials seem to indicate it does discreet input routing.  Some are awaiting the release of this new product to try it out.

I know the Line6 JM4 does this quite well, I own one.  But it's mono only, and it has very limited looping features (no tempo changes).  It's oddly difficult to turn the drum machine & FX off on the JM4, takes some getting used to. 

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Threeleggedyoyo

#2
Actually, you can! You just have to think outside the box and take advantage of some interesting settings. Allow me to explain. I'll go into more detail but for the brief answer tailored to just you, jump to the end of this message.

1) You can set the Phrases to go to different outputs (Sub, Main, or both. Phones always has both). If you like to use the RC-50 in Multi Mode (as many do) then you can have the different instruments come out of different jacks that way.

2) Use Stereo Mode and outputs. Stuff recorded in the INS Left and Right jacks will only come out of the Left and Right outputs even after recording as long as you are in Stereo Mode.

Moreover, The AUX jack has a setting for Center: ON/OFF. When the centering is off, and the patch is in Stereo recording mode, anything put into the AUX jack should only come out of the Left outputs. Remember that the Right output will send both signals (even in Stereo mode) unless you also have something plugged into the Left output. You might want to consider routing one of your two instruments this way because then you can take advantage of both the AUX and INS volume knobs right on the RC-50. Otherwise, both will be controlled with INS so you have to either get the balance right before it hits your looper or use the volume knobs on your monitor/amp for balance purposes. Not really a big deal I guess, but potentially nice.

There is also a setting for PAN for Phrases, basically accomplishing the same thing as Solution 1).

The MIC input, however, will always be recorded on both Left and Right Channels. Still, that's 3 inputs and 2 channels to work with. If you need the Mic coming out of just one, you can always convert it to something other than XLR and put it into one of the other inputs.


NOTES:

Be aware that if you are using two outputs to get a Stereo effect, the pedal will no longer sound good in Mono mode. One would think that putting the pedal into Mono mode from this setup would cause both the R and L jacks to send the same signal, but it doesn't. If you go back to Mono mode, the speakers plugged into the Left jack will sound very quiet and crappy.

3) You can do a combination here to get even more outputs. Since Phrases can be sent to either the SUB L and R jacks or the MAIN L and R jacks (or both, as is the default) you could potentially have 4 separate outputs, though only in MULTI mode and across different Phrases.

4) In the case of the internal drum machine, you can send it to just SUB or MAIN as well. This is useful for isolating the drum machine, but it will come out of both the R and L jacks for the selected output. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the drum machine can be panned.

So for your purposes, set the drum machine out to SUB and put a cable into the SUB R jack leading to your monitors. If your monitor has only one input, you'll need to merge the Main Right and SUB Right signals with a combiner cable or a preamp or something. No sweat with mixing since the drum machine has its own volume control.

In my case I use this feature to isolate the drum machine to the SUB out just so I can kill its signal or monitor it in headphones without actually turning it off. You lose the ability to quantize loops if you just turn down the volume, which is a really annoying setup that they fixed on the RC-300.

5) You can kinda sorta route things differently with the setting for INPUT. You can tell the RC-50 to send the input signal (this is any live jack, AUX, MIC, or INS) through either SUB, MAIN or Both. In general this isn't terribly useful since once you have recorded a loop, it is no longer input and whatever you did will revert to the Phrase settings. However, you could use this in some other interesting ways - for example you could monitor a loop you're making through your secret SUB jack before it "goes live," or you could have an amp that plays the Input especially loud to highlight whatever is the latest Overdub before dropping it back a bit.

--------------

So for your purposes, set up like this:


A) INPUT set to MAIN
B) Phrases 1, 2, and 3 output set to MAIN (Do this and A in System Settings so you don't have to do it three times for each patch)
C) Patch in Stereo Recording mode
D) GR-20 into the Right INS Input
E) Guitar chain into the Left INS Input
F) Monitor for GR-20 into MAIN Right Output
G) Amp for Guitar into MAIN Left Output
H) Drum machine (Guide) set to come out of SUB only. (also do this in system settings)
I) Monitor for GR-20/Drum machine also plugged into SUB R. (if needed, combine signal with a cable merger).

All set!

Hope that helps. Don't hesitate to ask if you are not sure where to find some of these settings. I'm happy to spell it out if needed.

shawnb

#3
Wow, that's excellent!    I think in stereo too much.    So much so that I had to read this 3x before I got it! 

I don't get how the AUX Center Cancel setting would help here, I thought you'd still get left & right, just missing vox, etc., that was panned center in the mix if on. 

However, following this line of thinking, if you have a two-instrument-cable-to-1/8"-stereo adapter, you should be able to pick either left or right for your AUX input.   This would give you a touch more flexibility - 4 inputs to 2 channels.

Very helpful post & I stand corrected!

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Threeleggedyoyo

Quote from: shawnb on August 26, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
Wow, that's excellent!    I think in stereo too much.    So much so that I had to read this 3x before I got it! 

I don't get how the AUX Center Cancel setting would help here, I thought you'd still get left & right, just missing vox, etc., that was panned center in the mix if on. 

However, following this line of thinking, if you have a two-instrument-cable-to-1/8"-stereo adapter, you should be able to pick either left or right for your AUX input.   This would give you a touch more flexibility - 4 inputs to 2 channels.

Very helpful post & I stand corrected!

Thanks shawn! Knowing something that you didn't makes me feel intelligent. :P

For the AUX Center input option, I believe it works like this:

AUX CENTER OFF: Whatever is in the AUX input is recorded/played back ONLY through the MAIN L and SUB L outputs (or just one of those, if selected via the Input/Patch settings). This is the same channel as INS Left. This setting is irrelevant if you are in Mono Recording Mode, or if you have only one output plugged into the machine (everything will come out of the R jack, as mono, if that's the only output plugged in regardless of your inputs or Recording mode).

AUX Center ON: The signal is sent through BOTH the R and L outputs.

So, the point of turning it off is if you want the signal going to one of your amps (the one connected to an L output) and not the other one. It only effects stuff plugged into the AUX input jack, nothing else.

Now, all of this is with MONO instrument cables for the connections. I'm not sure if putting a split stereo cable into the AUX jack would achieve the effect you mention. Will have to try that. So far as I know, all inputs and outputs on the RC-50 are mono, with the exception of the Phones jack. So if you plug a stereo cable into them, I think it takes the R and L of the signal and mixes it into a single signal. That's why the L and R jacks exist... Mono R and Mono L for Stereo Mode. Notice that the Main R jack is marked with a (Mono) for when it is by itself.

I might be wrong about that, though. Someone who uses stereo cables more often can see how it effects things.

Unlike you, I really DON'T think in Stereo. In fact, I used a stereo speaker cable on one of my guitars for years before realizing that's a different thing as an instrument cable.  :P However in this case my caveman ways seem to have come through for me.

I actually realized all this was possible the other day after our discussion on the Feature Request thread. Slapped my forehead. Seems like a big "duh" now. What else would Stereo Mode be for? Need to figure out if I want to incorporate this into my setup or not. Right now I'm happy to pump everything through both my bass amp and my cobbled-together PA/speaker monstrosity in the name of sheer volume.

shawnb

Excellent!  You don't think of these phrases as 'stereo', you think of them as '2 channel'! 

I think the difference is that you are using 1/8" MONO cables for the AUX input then.  That would explain why I get different behavior.  (I didn't even know they MADE 1/8" mono cables... ::))

The AUX inputs on the RC50 and the RC300 are both stereo.   Thus you can plug in an ipod, your GR55, or whatever other stereo device you have into them & have that faithfully represented on your recorded tracks & on your "input output" (great phrase!).   

With the adapter pictured above, you could pick whether you wanted a mono signal fed to your AUX Left or Right.  And as you said, then the mixer levels of AUX vs INST are very helpful. 

The purpose of the RC50 'aux center cancel' is so you can practice overdubbing, a simple karaoke effect.  Since most prominent vocal tracks & many guitar solos are 'up front & center', if you take out what is common to both R & L, you are essentially taking out the 'center' channel - or, to be more exact, what has been mixed to go down the middle.  The RC50 thought folks might be playing iPods, etc., thru it, and want to do their own thing 'up front & center'.  It's far from perfect, but might be good for practicing against. 

This feature is not on the RC300, but I don't miss it.  I'm sure someone out there does, though! 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Threeleggedyoyo

Quote from: shawnb on August 26, 2012, 07:08:51 PM
Excellent!  You don't think of these phrases as 'stereo', you think of them as '2 channel'! 

I think the difference is that you are using 1/8" MONO cables for the AUX input then.  That would explain why I get different behavior.  (I didn't even know they MADE 1/8" mono cables... ::))

The AUX inputs on the RC50 and the RC300 are both stereo.   Thus you can plug in an ipod, your GR55, or whatever other stereo device you have into them & have that faithfully represented on your recorded tracks & on your "input output" (great phrase!).   

With the adapter pictured above, you could pick whether you wanted a mono signal fed to your AUX Left or Right.  And as you said, then the mixer levels of AUX vs INST are very helpful. 

The purpose of the RC50 'aux center cancel' is so you can practice overdubbing, a simple karaoke effect.  Since most prominent vocal tracks & many guitar solos are 'up front & center', if you take out what is common to both R & L, you are essentially taking out the 'center' channel - or, to be more exact, what has been mixed to go down the middle.  The RC50 thought folks might be playing iPods, etc., thru it, and want to do their own thing 'up front & center'.  It's far from perfect, but might be good for practicing against. 

This feature is not on the RC300, but I don't miss it.  I'm sure someone out there does, though!

Well, how about that, it is a stereo input then.

Yup, the 1/8 Mono is what I've doing. I don't know if they make 1/8 mono cables either. But I do know I'm using instrument cable which is then plugged into a 1/4 ----> 1/8 adapter to the AUX. In my case I actually split the guitar signal into two - one for an INS input and one for the AUX input. The INS one goes through effects first. This way the AUX serves as a Dry volume knob. Very handy when I want distorted bass without losing the low end, or bar distorted bar chords without losing definition.  8)

Didn't know the AUX center had that intended karaoke function. I'll have to try that. Good to know about your split trick if I ever get the RC-300 without AUX centering options.

Hopkins

Fantastic, this is a great hack!  I, too, had failed to realise the significance of "stereo" in this case being "2-channel" :P  Now I will be able to invite my cellist friend over and resume my initial suggestion to him that we try to do some sort of duet with independent loops for each of us!  Cheers, TLY!

ASlave2Audio

Thanks so much guys!


I have to throw another curveball I wanted to throw you guys after I got the main issue resolved.
I have a Graphtech Ghost Hexpander and Piezo system built into my guitar. Any possible way I could route the acoustic signal to the monitors and have my pickups go to my amp on top of all of this?

Thank you again!

Threeleggedyoyo

Quote from: ASlave2Audio on September 07, 2012, 05:39:02 PM
Thanks so much guys!

I have to throw another curveball I wanted to throw you guys after I got the main issue resolved.
I have a Graphtech Ghost Hexpander and Piezo system built into my guitar. Any possible way I could route the acoustic signal to the monitors and have my pickups go to my amp on top of all of this?

Thank you again!

You're welcome! :)

It's possible, yeah. But I'd need to know a little more about how the aforementioned products work. Do they have their own outputs? If they have two separate outputs, then this isn't difficult. You would just need to combine the acoustic signal with the GR-20 signal before it goes into the Right input (which then goes to your monitor).

The simplest way to do this is with one of these:

http://www.buy.com/prod/6-35mm-1-4-inch-mono-plug-to-2-x-6-35mm-1-4-inch-mono-jack-splitter/228757555.html

I have a few of them in my practice room. They are effective for merging two signals to go into a single jack (or splitting them if the signal is going the other way). So plug the GR-20 into one jack on the splitter, the accoustic signal to the other, and plug the splitter's male end into the Right Main In, and you're good.

NOTE: It's important that you get the one here, which is 1 mono to 2 mono. Often these are Stereo left/Right to Mono, or Left and Right to Stereo... those serve different purposes. For this you want 1 Mono to 2 Mono like in the link.

If you need to be able to adjust volume levels, though, you'll want to put them into a mixer of some sort, which then goes into the looper. But I believe the products you mention have their own volume anyway.

Meanwhile, the pickups output should be going to the Left Main input (or to effects and there, or whatever). Just like before, really.

----

Alternatively, you can use the splitter that Shawn B mentioned in the thread previously and plug it into the AUX jack. Then you'll have AUX Right and Left. Same applies, though. Whatever is in the Right will go out the Right output (which I said to send to the Monitor), the Left goes to the amp.

----

Now, if the gizmos you mention don't have their own outputs, you need to get a little more creative, but it can still be done, more or less. In this case you'll simply need to split the guitar signal into two. One of these will go through your effects/whatever and then plug into the Left to hit the amp. The other will go unaffected into the Right and then hit the monitor. This could be done via the AUX setup or the dual INS jacks as mentioned before.

I confess this wouldn't separate your equipment pickups, but it would give you one output with effects and one output without it, and that's pretty close to an accoustic/non-accoustic separation.

For this application I recommend one of these:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSYPP111

So you'd plug your guitar cable into that, and then have each line go to the desired inputs/outputs with two guitar cables.

NOTE: You may lose a little volume with the split, and have to adjust accordingly. As mentioned before, if you need more volume control, you'd want a mixer with multiple ins/outs instead.

In my case, I use a splitter like this for my guitar. I plug one into an effects and then an INS jack, and the other straight into the AUX jack (using a 1/4 to 1/8 converter). Right now they all come out into the same amps/speakers. But what this does is turn the AUX jack into a "Dry" knob. This is really handy when I want distorted bar chords that don't lose definition, or distorted bass that doesn't lose that warm deep low end. That's a trick I'd recommend to anyone regardless of looping or anything...

Hopefully that answers your questions.


Schulti

Quote from: Threeleggedyoyo on August 26, 2012, 01:21:29 AM
Actually, you can! You just have to think outside the box and take advantage of some interesting settings. Allow me to explain. I'll go into more detail but for the brief answer tailored to just you, jump to the end of this message.

1) You can set the Phrases to go to different outputs (Sub, Main, or both. Phones always has both). If you like to use the RC-50 in Multi Mode (as many do) then you can have the different instruments come out of different jacks that way.

2) Use Stereo Mode and outputs. Stuff recorded in the INS Left and Right jacks will only come out of the Left and Right outputs even after recording as long as you are in Stereo Mode.

Moreover, The AUX jack has a setting for Center: ON/OFF. When the centering is off, and the patch is in Stereo recording mode, anything put into the AUX jack should only come out of the Left outputs. Remember that the Right output will send both signals (even in Stereo mode) unless you also have something plugged into the Left output. You might want to consider routing one of your two instruments this way because then you can take advantage of both the AUX and INS volume knobs right on the RC-50. Otherwise, both will be controlled with INS so you have to either get the balance right before it hits your looper or use the volume knobs on your monitor/amp for balance purposes. Not really a big deal I guess, but potentially nice.

There is also a setting for PAN for Phrases, basically accomplishing the same thing as Solution 1).

The MIC input, however, will always be recorded on both Left and Right Channels. Still, that's 3 inputs and 2 channels to work with. If you need the Mic coming out of just one, you can always convert it to something other than XLR and put it into one of the other inputs.


NOTES:

Be aware that if you are using two outputs to get a Stereo effect, the pedal will no longer sound good in Mono mode. One would think that putting the pedal into Mono mode from this setup would cause both the R and L jacks to send the same signal, but it doesn't. If you go back to Mono mode, the speakers plugged into the Left jack will sound very quiet and crappy.

3) You can do a combination here to get even more outputs. Since Phrases can be sent to either the SUB L and R jacks or the MAIN L and R jacks (or both, as is the default) you could potentially have 4 separate outputs, though only in MULTI mode and across different Phrases.

4) In the case of the internal drum machine, you can send it to just SUB or MAIN as well. This is useful for isolating the drum machine, but it will come out of both the R and L jacks for the selected output. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the drum machine can be panned.

So for your purposes, set the drum machine out to SUB and put a cable into the SUB R jack leading to your monitors. If your monitor has only one input, you'll need to merge the Main Right and SUB Right signals with a combiner cable or a preamp or something. No sweat with mixing since the drum machine has its own volume control.

In my case I use this feature to isolate the drum machine to the SUB out just so I can kill its signal or monitor it in headphones without actually turning it off. You lose the ability to quantize loops if you just turn down the volume, which is a really annoying setup that they fixed on the RC-300.

5) You can kinda sorta route things differently with the setting for INPUT. You can tell the RC-50 to send the input signal (this is any live jack, AUX, MIC, or INS) through either SUB, MAIN or Both. In general this isn't terribly useful since once you have recorded a loop, it is no longer input and whatever you did will revert to the Phrase settings. However, you could use this in some other interesting ways - for example you could monitor a loop you're making through your secret SUB jack before it "goes live," or you could have an amp that plays the Input especially loud to highlight whatever is the latest Overdub before dropping it back a bit.

--------------

So for your purposes, set up like this:


A) INPUT set to MAIN
B) Phrases 1, 2, and 3 output set to MAIN (Do this and A in System Settings so you don't have to do it three times for each patch)
C) Patch in Stereo Recording mode
D) GR-20 into the Right INS Input
E) Guitar chain into the Left INS Input
F) Monitor for GR-20 into MAIN Right Output
G) Amp for Guitar into MAIN Left Output
H) Drum machine (Guide) set to come out of SUB only. (also do this in system settings)
I) Monitor for GR-20/Drum machine also plugged into SUB R. (if needed, combine signal with a cable merger).

All set!

Hope that helps. Don't hesitate to ask if you are not sure where to find some of these settings. I'm happy to spell it out if needed.

Hey Threeleggedyoyo,

i have a question about your described workaround for two channel routing with the RC-50 - but i want to know, if it will work on the RC-300 too.
I tryed it with your explanation but i didn´t get the correct routing worked. maybe my english is not good enough to understand every single point ?!

I plug 2 mono-instruments (expander and drummodule) to the left and right instr.-input. then i panned track 1 to left udn track 2 to right. BUT, when i record a loop in track 1 and then a loop in track 2, the loop from track 1 will be recorded on track 2 together with the new recording i do on track two.

It would be wonderful, if you could help me. I want to have two seperated tracks for two instruments for use with my duo-partner.
Thank you

Threeleggedyoyo

Hey Schulti. Sorry I didn't see this post sooner.

The workaround should work on the 300 as well.

Don't worry about panning the tracks. There is no need. It's very simple:

When the looper is set to Stereo:
Instrument plugged into INS L comes out of MAIN L.
Instrument plugged in to INS R comes out of MAIN R.

That's it!

Let me know if that doesn't make sense.