Moog E1M: Polysustainer plus 13 pin GK- Advise needed

Started by vanceg, April 02, 2008, 04:24:30 PM

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vanceg

OOOOOH - Details are sparse right now - but it looks like MOOG is putting out a guitar!  Some say it's got a polyphonic sustainer and moog electonics onboard. It looks like it is NOT (NOT) Roland 13Pin equipped, but rather more of a stand-alone instrument. 

The front page of the MOOG site has a video teaser.  MatrixSynth site has a little more info...but right now there's not much out about it.

http://moogmusic.com/

Vance

mos6507

The GR-300 simulator in the VG-99 is sufficiently analog for me.  I love that thing.

Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

mos6507

Gibson just reissued the RD Artist but I haven't heard anything about it having the electronics package. :(

http://www.zzounds.com/item--GIBDSRD

Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

Elantric

#3
That RD Artist re-issue is typical Gibson - its nothing like the original

The original had a Fender Scale length (25.5") and the Moog Electronics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_RD


"The Gibson RD series solid body electric guitars were launched in 1977 as a complementary range to Gibson's existing guitars. They were designed to be brighter sounding than the existing models (such as the Gibson Les Paul or Gibson SG) and as such were longer scale (25 1/2" as opposed to the more usual 24 3/4"), maple-bodied, and with state-of-the-art pre-amplified (active) electronics. At the time Gibson was owned by Norlin who also owned Moog Music. The active electronics were designed by Bob Moog, shortly before he left his own company.

[edit] RD Models

RD Artist 1977-82 The best known RD, the Artist featured active circuitry with switchable bright mode, compression and expansion. No passive mode. The electronics consisted of a 9v battery powering a circuit board the length of the body, accessible from the back cover. Also available as a bass.

RD Custom 1977-79 The Custom featured active circuitry with a switchable bright mode. The electronics consisted of a 9v battery powering a circuit board smaller than the artists, but still of significant size, accessible from the back cover. No passive mode."




FWIW - I do have the Bob Moog schematics for the original Gibson RD Artist PC board with Bright Boost, Compressor, Expander.

Heres a pic of the circuit board - from the sister "LP Artist"

http://www.lespaulforum.com/slubarticle/artist/artist12.02.html

"It is ironic that the complexity and wide sonic variety of the Artist led to its demise. In fact, when the author purchased his first Artist from a player in Ottumwa Iowa, the seller said that it was "too much guitar for him." Tim Shaw of Gibson said the he didn't appreciate until later that "guitar players are really conservative folks, and nobody really wanted a guitar that did all that." Tim was also quoted as saying that "somebody once said that with one of those Artists you were a flick of a switch away from total disaster." Thus, the Artist, which was introduced in late 1979, was dropped by 1982 from the Gibson line."

vanceg

From what I hear it has a polyphonic sustain in it (different from a sustainiac maybe...but I doubt it!), and moog processing  (filters, maybe Moogerfooger type processing built in).

Looks nice to me but info is pretty limited so far. 

Not nearly as cool as a VG-99, I suspect!

Vance

Quote from:  sustainiac
Clearly you did not view the Moog video

Like Vance said - Seems its more of a Sustainiac 

http://moogmusic.com/


groovy - but (yawn) been doing that for over 10 years.

http://www.sustainiac.com/
http://www.fernandesguitars.com/


Some useless Trivia - Moog Music (when it was part of Norlin) designed the Gibson "RD" active onboard electronics, which included a Compressor and an Expander.  I detect those circuits may have re-emerged here.

http://vintage-guitars.blogspot.com/2006/09/gibson-rd-electric-guitars.html


"Three RD electric guitar models were made ( RD Standard , RD Custom , and the gibson RD Artist) , one of the more interesting features of these guitars is that some were fitted with a bob moog compression and expansion preamp ."


vanceg

Some more details on the MOOG guitar (from Create Digital Music blog)



This is a quote from a guy I know that got to see it in action:

"A week or so back I posted a thread about Moog coming to my small little guitar shop I work at to introduce their new guitar.

Well today was the day. The new guitar has alot of cool features but nothing too unheard of or out of the box. It's very similar to the Fernadez sustainer guitar. The main feature of the guitar is the pickups, that make the strings vibrate on their own. It's kind of like having an ebow on each on off the strings. There is also a feature that makes only the fretted strings vibrate. Along with that, there is another feature that does just the opposite. Instead of the pickups giving the guitar "positive energy" to make the strings vibrate, it can be reversed to give the strings "negative energy". This gives the guitar a muted sound, very much like a banjo to my ears. The guitar connects to an expression pedal via a 5 pin cable and from there turns into a standard 1/4 inch. The guitar also has a cool sounding low pass filter effect built in. It also functions as a normal guitar.

The build of the guitar is top notch. It was really solid and felt nice. The problem is that it's really feakin stupid looking though. It's got a ghey quilt top and looks all fancy, which just isn't for me. I was hoping it would be a big bulky silvertone looking thing. So if there is one thing i really didn't like about the guitar, it's the looks. It looks like something the like you'd see on TGP. Moog doesn't actually make the guitars of course, I can't remember the name of the company that the rep said was building them, but the guitar still has Moog's name on it.

I really didn't think the thing was all that great until i got to play it. You can do the most amazing volume swells for days with this thing . Unless they change the way this thing looks, i really couldn't see myself owning one, especially considering the thousands of dollars it probably cost, but its still freakin cool to play around with.

anyways, Moog is releasing it on their site on April 1st (Don't think it's a joke like the mooger fooger radio thing was) and it should be at summer NAMM.

baranger1

#6
Thanks for the update Vance!
Funny, Roland did this on their first guitar synth in the 1970,s
It was the GR-500.
The pickup drove the string.
What old is new again.

Bill


vanceg

New videos and details here.  I SO wish I could put these electronics into my own instrument!  It's also a little tiny bit too expensive for me (Like, nearly $7000).

http://www.moogmusic.com/moogguitar/

truth57

I wholeheartedly agree! It would really be something if Moog were to decide to venture where companies such as Line 6 fear to tread and provide a mod for any guitar which could be sold at a reasonable price to anyone wanting this type of facility on their existing instrument. I somehow doubt that is going to happen, but then again you never know, because Moog by their very nature are far more adventurous than Line 6, and they seem to have spared nothing in their R&D in order to develop this product. It seems to have been painstakingly tried and tested before putting it on the market, and it seems to me to have paid off.
However the price will put it out of the reach of any but the most well off players, and I feel that is a shame, because that might force it to go the way of other great innovations such as the Synthaxe, which is now not even available to a player such as Allan Holdsworth, who would have used them far more had parts and technical support till been available. But my point is that only very few had sufficient money to purchase a Synthaxe, so now there are so few in the world that they are relatively impossible to come by. So such products are more and more becoming relegated to collector's items. I think the same could be said for the original Steinberger GLs also.

David

TheGuitarPlayer

Earlier this week at NAMM, Moog announced an upgraded version of the Moog guitar, and low and behold it has a 13-pin output.

It has been designated the Moog E1-M and is available with a fixed bridge, or with a whammy bridge.  The hexaphonic pickup is piezo based, and the guitar has all three standard GK controls (GK Vol, S1/S2, output select).  The piezo saddles are from Graph Tech, so presumeably it is a Graph Tech Ghost pickup system.



Moog E1-M with Whammy Bridge

  • Price: USD$4,395
  • Available in three finishes: Candy Red, Butterscotch, Black

Moog E1-M with Fixed Bridge

  • Price: USD$4,195
  • Available in three finishes: Candy Red, Butterscotch, Black



So, who wants one?

vanceg

I'm having my E-1 Modded as we speak. I should have it back in a week or two.  Whoooohoooo. Should be a great combination with the VG-99 and the StringPort.

For those of you who might be interested:  There is not a way to attach a GK-3 pickup to the Moog guitar. Attaching any sort of magnetic device (or even piece of metal) to the E1 may cause the internal electronics of the Moog sustain system perform poorly.  UNfortunately, you'll have to spring for the E-1m. 


A2theT

I voted No only because there wasn't a  "No, I'd love to have one but its $3000 too much!"
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

TheGuitarPlayer

Thats what the "Yes, but not this year" option is for.  The question was do you want one, not will you buy one.

A2theT

#14
So my answer "No" still stands then.  I don't want one (especially at that price).  Just like I don't want a Bentley. lol
I'm sure its a really cool guitar though.  Funny though, there are lots of people that are willing to buy expensive guitars.  If only I was in that income bracket.
Personally, I'd never pay $4000-$5000 for a Taylor either but if it was affordable and sounded THAT much better than my Tak I'd probably go for it.
I think everyone has their limits.  You know, maybe if that Moog was wireless I'd drool some more over it but I don't know.
I'd be more inclined towards an Ibanez shred model guitar with a wireless bluetooth GK embedded system or something a little less wired.
This IS the wireless age you know......
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

TheGuitarPlayer

That seems contradictory to me, you said, and I qoute "I'd love to have one".  Like I said, the question was not "would you buy one" or in fact anything about the cost/performance ratio.  The question was purely about wanting or not wanting the guitar on it's merits as an instrument.  It's your vote though, I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do with it.

On the subject of expensive guitars.  I'm certainly not in the income bracket that can justify throwing money away on guitars, but for me, the possibilities with the E1-M make it worth the money.  It's sustaining features are siginificantly more advanced than the Sustainiac I have, and the only reason I wouldn't have bought one before is the lack of a 13-pin output (and the inability to install a after-market one).  That's no longer a problem, so now I will get one.  I'm not even particularly interested in how it sounds seeing as I've been using V-Guitar systems to generate modelled guitars for years now.  As long as the sustainer and the 13-pin output work well, I will get one.

Kevin M

Then, I'm voting a definite 'yes, no, maybe, I don't know'! :-)

Elantric

#17
I'll wait 18-36 months, and pick up a used scratch & dent E1 with 13 pin on ebay or Craigslist for 50% off.

Yes i want one, but i will only spend under $2k.

But I still prefer the sound of the GK-3A over Piezos.

A2theT

Quote from:  TheGuitarPlayer on January 28, 2010, 10:27:50 AM
That seems contradictory to me, you said, and I qoute "I'd love to have one". 

yup, it is contradictory.  i changed my mind.  i think.  heres the thing.  "want" is derived by a desire to have.  i seemed to have lost the desire.  i think i may have thought myself right out of it.  maybe i realized that the original desire for the guitar slowly dissolved when i thought about the cost + the taxes + the shipping + the dent it would accidentally acquire a week after i bot it lol.  ;-)
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

A2theT

You know, I think I'm back to wanting it again.  lol.  After checking out some more specs and videos it has a lot of great features.
One feature Roland would surely be able to implement with a firmware update to the VG-99 IMO.

Basically, under the COSM guitar model you would take away the guitar noise gate and create an "Individual String Gate" for the 6 strings.
I think that this would emulate what Moog is doing when they claim that the guitar detects what strings you're playing and just mutes the others.
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

vanceg

Quote from: A to the T on January 29, 2010, 06:05:52 AM
You know, I think I'm back to wanting it again.  lol.  After checking out some more specs and videos it has a lot of great features.
One feature Roland would surely be able to implement with a firmware update to the VG-99 IMO.

Basically, under the COSM guitar model you would take away the guitar noise gate and create an "Individual String Gate" for the 6 strings.
I think that this would emulate what Moog is doing when they claim that the guitar detects what strings you're playing and just mutes the others.

Yup. A very full featured specification and feature request related to modifying the Freeze feature on the VG-99 so that it functions a little more like the Moog guitar was sent to Roland US almost two years ago. It may happen someday. But I'm not holding my breath.

The StringPort should be able to implement this feature at some point. I have a version of it running using the StringPort to get each of my six strings into the computer individually, then I use six copies of a plugin called "TimeFreezer" to freeze each individual string. I have the trigger for engaging the Freeze function tied to the amplitude of the string, so each time I play a new note on any particular string, the sound of that string is frozen.  It's actually quite cool.  You can get close with the VG-99 and some fancy pedal footwork.


vanceg

This is great news to hear.  I understand (but don't know for sure)  that Moog did some modifications to the Graphtech equipped bridge to help it maintain more consistent contact with the strings...perhaps this same general approach was taken on the Floyd.  PURE speculation here... but what I'm getting at is perhaps the more recently designed Graphtech products have solved some of the older, inherent shortcomings of Piezo bridges that we bring up here.... that would be nice.


vanceg

This is somewhat tangential to this topic but I thought it might be useful as it IS related.

I received my Moog E1-M guitar recently. This is essentially a Moog E1 with a  Hexpander system installed. The tremolo that the E1 uses is not my favorite.  The tremolo they use is a Wilkinson - and it's really a high-end nice version of a tremolo that you'd find on a strat. (I don't like it one bit because I can't do much in the way of upward bends and it's WAY to stiff for me. I like Floyds or, even better, Steinberger trems which feel SUPER smooth and easy to move.  But I'm willing to give that up (perhaps) for the sustain system that is built into the Moog. )  The Wilkinson seems to be a great piece of gear, I just don't care for the way it works and feels. 

BUT TO THE POINT HERE:  I have tested it with many "dive bomb" moves, running the signal through the VG-99, and the sound does not drop out at all, even if I dive bomb all the way down so the strings are as slack as they can be with this model of tremolo.  Moog may have done something to ensure that the strings stay in contact with the bridge pieces, but I haven't taken the instrument apart to look...and I wouldn't know if this was a Moog mod, or something the Graphtech or Wilkinson do even when this item is sold for use on other instruments.

If there are those of you out there who really like the Wilkinson Strat type tremolo systems and are considering a Graphtech system to use with it, this might be important information for you.

I wish I could swap the Wilkinson out for a Floyd on my Moog, but this would require some significant routing and MAN OH MAN would I be bummed out to have damaged such an expensive instrument if the Floyd somehow interfered with the function of the Moog electronics.... too big a risk for me.....


Quote from:  admsustainiac on January 19, 2010, 11:54:57 PM
Congratulations!

Question?

If you feed the 13 pin cable to the VG-99, and press your trem bar all the way down (dive bomb) at what point does the sound cut out?

as the strings become so  loose that zero downward pressure exists on the piezo saddles.



clamhands

#23
Quote from:  vanceg on February 22, 2010, 05:31:01 PM

I received my Moog E1-M guitar recently. This is essentially a Moog E1 with a  Hexpander system installed. The tremolo that the E1 uses is not my favorite.  The tremolo they use is a Wilkinson - and it's really a high-end nice version of a tremolo that you'd find on a strat. (I don't like it one bit because I can't do much in the way of upward bends and it's WAY to stiff for me. I like Floyds or, even better, Steinberger trems which feel SUPER smooth and easy to move.  But I'm willing to give that up (perhaps) for the sustain system that is built into the Moog. )  The Wilkinson seems to be a great piece of gear, I just don't care for the way it works and feels.  


I have an older version of a Wilkinson piezo equipped trem (accoutic output only no 13 pin "guts"...the model might be VS-100 and or include the word Powerbridge???  I'll have to drag it out of the closet and look when I get home tonight) on an early 90's ESP Custom Shop Horizon that I bought secondhand.  I have identical feedback to vanceg- no drop outs in the accoustic output through the entire up and down trem range and I *strongly* prefer the feel and operation of a Floyd over this bridge as well.  One other noteworthy issue is that I seem to break strings during casual "sitting on the couch" playing on this particular guitar *way more* than any other guitar I've ever owned.  Not sure if this is related to the bridge or not.

Brak(E)man

#24
Anyone using the moog guitar e1 with a vg 99 or 88 or go 10 etc..?
Ifso pros and cons ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch