Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?

Started by Don Juan de Marco, August 04, 2010, 11:33:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Elantric

#50
QuoteIs a 7.1 stereo wireless headphone using a "true" 8 channel fully separate sound channel transmission?

no,

Most are wirelessly transmitting a pre-exisiting Dolby AC3 or DTS multichannel bitstream with meta data control for real time steering of the signals and decoding in the headphone.
http://www.astrogaming.com/a30-headset-ac3-edition

To employ that tech on a DIY solution would have several hurdles -  guitar mounted real time low latency AC3/DTS encoding ICs and obtaining legal license to use that tech.

Today both Dolby and DTS make 85% of their income from licensing their CODECs, and have fierce legal teams.

montyrivers

Quote from: Elantric on September 14, 2013, 06:07:37 AM

Today both Dolby and DTS make 85% of their income from licensing their CODECs, and have fierce legal teams.

Those Bastages.

Elantric

#52
This tech holds a lot of promise, Maybe it could be used for a GK-Wireless solution
The WiGig Serial Extension (WSE) v1.2 specification from the Wi-Fi Alliance® will provide the initial foundation for the Media Agnostic USB specification.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/usb-if-wi-fi-media-agnostic-ma-use-spec,24200.html
There's a new USB spec in development allowing the USB protocol and speeds over a wireless connection.



The non-profit USB Implementers Forum (USB-IF) announced on Monday (pdf) the development of the new Media Agnostic USB (MA USB) that aims to enable wireless devices and docking stations to communicate over the USB protocol without the need for a physical, wired connection. The spec is also shooting to achieve wireless gigabit transfer rates while using the existing USB infrastructure.
http://www.usb.org/press/USB-IF_Press_Releases/USB_WSE_Tech_Bulletin_FINAL.pdf


The USB-IF group said this week that the WiGig Serial Extension (WSE) v1.2 specification from the Wi-Fi Alliance will provide the initial foundation for the new MA USB specification. The WSE specification has been formally transferred to the USB-IF from the Wi-Fi Alliance, and the WSE specification already incorporates the USB protocol.

Wireless devices using the MA USB spec will be compliant with USB 3.1, USB 3.0 and USB 2.0, meaning the devices will use existing drivers and APIs.The WiGig spec can achieve several times the speed of Wi-Fi, up to 7 Gbps, by accessing the unlicensed 60 GHz frequencies within a short range like the bedroom or den. WiGig became a part of the Wi-Fi Alliance at the beginning of the year.

The non-profit USB-IF group has also established an MA USB Work Group that is currently developing the MA USB v1.0 spec, which can supposedly use any kind of wireless system including WiGig, Wi-Fi and UWB (Ultrawide Band). This development will take around a year to complete, and then likely another year before devices with wireless USB technology will appear on the market. Work on wireless USB began sometime around 2004.

"We are pleased to see the USB-IF use the WiGig Serial Extension in its development of the Media Agnostic USB specification," said Edgar Figueroa, president and CEO of Wi-Fi Alliance. "Advanced wireless usages of serial bus technology have the potential to deliver great benefit to users."

News of the new spec arrives after the Wi-Fi Alliance revealed new WiGig CERTIFIED branding on Sunday for certified products entering the market as soon as next year. Unlike the current dual-band 802.11ac Wi-Fi spec which operates on the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz bands, these devices will operate on the 60 GHz frequency band as previously stated. This allows for low-latency traffic, multi-gigabit speed and secured connectivity between nearby devices.

"In addition to developing a certification program to validate product interoperability, Wi-Fi Alliance has initiated several projects to address 60 GHz implementations of data, display, and audio applications," the group stated. "Newly-formed cooperative relationships with other industry organizations will also help ensure delivery of the best user experience with a variety of applications on WiGig CERTIFIED products."

WiGig CERTIFIED and Wi-Fi CERTIFIED products are expected to implement USB functionality, the group said.


and

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/wireless_connectivity/wireless_audio/overview.page
http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/wireless_connectivity/wireless_audio/products.page

CodeSmart

Cool stuff happening!!! Thanks for sharing Elantric.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

gumtown

I like the sound of that, could be the best digital option yet.

Other alternatives for wireless GK with minimal latency would be an Analog form of Time Division Multiplexing (TDM),
or old school analog stacked channel wideband RF (bulky too).
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

gumtown

A net search on low latency multi channel RF chipsets has brought me back here..ha.
Looks like TI Purepath is still the best at 10~16ms  :-\
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

CodeSmart

So two 2xCC8531 could transfer 8 audio channels, where the 8'th channel could be used for a coded S1/S2/VOL transmission using a couple of PIC's. However, how would this latency "feel" to the guitarist? To slow?
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

gumtown

#57
These look interesting
MRF24WB0MA/MRF24WB0MB Data Sheet
2.4 GHz IEEE 802.11b™
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70632C.pdf
1~2 Mb/s throughput could support up to and well over 192kHz sampling rate per string with some added A/D like this
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS5368_F4.pdf
and D/A
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/cs4362a-82a.html
Can't find any info on latency, but they talk about 10uS wakeup times.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

CodeSmart

Yup chips looks very workable acc. to the data sheets.  :) One battery powered transmitter strap-on box with a input 13-pin input jack + one (synth powered or adapter powered with integrated charger? for transmitter) receiver with 13-pin output.
Two short cables included. Component cost + mounting, assembly, testing, packaging, margin => street price incl. VAT = my guess $599
I WANT!!!
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Elantric

#59
QuoteComponent cost + mounting, assembly, testing, packaging, margin => street price incl. VAT = my guess $599
I WANT!!!

Add about $25K to $50K for non recurring R&D charges (minimum) for two folks to work on this  - and fund engineering prototypes.  I estimate at the end of the day this type system will still add approx 12-20 ms latency - in addition to any other latency (Guitar to MIDI)  - and the forced need to run batteries on the Guitar side explains the low interest level. If it did exist at $600 each for the wireless 13 pin system - my hunch is there are only 40-50 buyers willing to pony up those funds for a sale.

There is always Kickstarter !

But remember 80% of guitarists still think the GK 13 pin cable is MIDI. 

Yug

I've been thinking about wireless GK-3 for a long time and this thread has made for some interesting reading.
Given that we are looking for a bandwidth in the region of 7Mbits per second to satisfy the transport of 7 audio channels and control with 24 bit and 44KHz sample rate, this doesn't seem to difficult to imagine over an rf link. Obviously, using existing Wifi, bluetooth type protocols is a no go due to latency so a more direct form of rf link is required. Latency could never be much better than say 2ms due to the group delay of the convertors, which will most likely be sigma delta convertors at each end of the link. As a rule of thumb, 5ms would be the absolute maximum latency given that man can begin to detect latency over 5ms - as is the case with in-ear monitors. Also bearing in mind that 1ms represents about 1 foot in distance. This means we have to implement an rf digital link offering a letency of no more than 3ms in order that the player's experience is not compromised.
So, it's probably time to investigate the transport of 7Mbs with a latency of less than 3ms using a unidirectional rf link transporting a low level error correcting protocol which challenges my knowledge of rf links inspite of this being chicken feed with my work on wired links. One of these being a recent project in developing a full duplex 48k 48 channel USB interface. USB2 supports 48 channels of bidirectional audio. At least this gives us some known benchmarks in some critical areas. I think even WAVES offers latencies in its UDP Soundgrid protocol of less than 1ms, so an rf implementation is certainly not rocket science in acheiving that required.
As has been mentioned, the biggest killer is going to be the supply demands of the guitar electronics needs. However, the current quad port ADCs are fairly low power. For example using two PCM4104's would demand about 188mW. Factoring in processor and rf requirements, we probably can get reasonable play time per change of Li-ions.
It seems the appropriate rf link is the key area of investigation, not forgetting all those nasty legal requisites.

gumtown

#61
One way to get past the latency is to go all analog (stacked wideband+ inverted channels), or just all out high speed digital.

A nice option/compliment to a wireless system would be to make use of a regular jack guitar cable to carry DC and/or recharge the internal transmitter battery, and also pipe the rf down the guitar cable.
Although it defeats the purpose of wireless, it does make 13 pin systems more palattable by using a regular robust industry standard mono guitar cable connection for GK guitar.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

whippinpost91850

Quote from: gumtown on September 12, 2014, 05:37:42 PM
One way to get past the latency is to go all analog (stacked wideband+ inverted channels), or just all out high speed digital.

A nice option/compliment to a wireless system would be to make use of a regular jack guitar cable to carry DC and/or recharge the internal transmitter battery, and also pipe the rf down the guitar cable.
Although it defeats the purpose of wireless, it does make 13 pin systems more palattable by using a regular robust industry standard mono guitar cable connection for GK guitar.
Now I like this idea 8)

Elantric

#63
Quotemake use of a regular jack guitar cable to carry DC and/or recharge the internal transmitter battery, and also pipe the rf down the guitar cable.
Although it defeats the purpose of wireless, it does make 13 pin systems more palattable by using a regular robust industry standard mono guitar cable connection for GK guitar.

Similar designs have been used before.

The 1986 Takamine / Ovatiion  / Charvel MIDI Guitars employed the Shadow GTM6 system using one TRS 1/4"  cable with power on the ring and PAM Multiplexed 6 audio channels on the Tip.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2485.0

A similar type system was used on the Gibson /Tronical/Echo designed Gibson Dark Fire / Dusk Tiger/ LP LTD 5 years ago

whippinpost91850

yes I remember these. I used to have Shadow GT. Loved not having to use 24pin at the time. But didn't like the even greater latancy and sadly it broke fairly easily

CodeSmart

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on September 13, 2014, 08:30:59 AM
yes I remember these. I used to have Shadow GT. Loved not having to use 24pin at the time. But didn't like the even greater latancy and sadly it broke fairly easily
Technology has evolved since the 80's. We don't have to assume that it's impossible. I really like Gumtowns ideas. A wireless or DC carried 6-channel audio+control signals using a shared protocol would be great.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

gumtown

#66
New apt-X LIVE codec White paper
Is this the way of the future?
As the radio spectrum of older analog gear is re-assigned to mobile broadband, making all current wireless guitar/mic gear virtually useless,
the old analog TV UHF spectrum is to be opened up to "White Space" wireless digital audio.

Quote
PERFORMANCE
apt-X Live can deliver a single channel of 24bit, 48kHz audio at 144kbps and a codec latency of less
than 1.9ms. The majority of this delay can be attributed to the subband analysis and synthesis filter banks. An average bit error rate of 10-3 is subjectively insignificant across a wide range of test material. In the event of restoration of reception after longer-term data loss, apt-X Live recovers the audio stream after an additional delay of approximately 3ms

This could path the way to (multi channel digital audio) wireless GK technology with a 1.9ms latency.

http://www.csr.com/sites/default/files/white-papers/low_bit_rate_audio_coding_for_digital_wireless_microphones.pdf
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Tony Raven

All in all, wouldn't it just be a LOT easier to hang a VG-99 or GR-55 off my belt (balanced by the battery pack on the other hip) & send THAT output wireless to the board...?



CodeSmart

Well then, spend it and tell us later if it's good :D  Not to be negative but there's no info about what technology used and how it will operate on stage with other wireless systems/FM radios in the area.
I wish the guy could present the system in this forum. It's very interesting if it's properly made.
If you stand there and a close by radio station kicks in playing hip-hop on one of your strings while you're doing the rock'n'roll it could be problematic.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

gumtown

Definitely need some basic specs, it does not seem to carry GK Volume, S1/S2, or GK Switch.
You can easily make your own GK wireless by using 3 or 4 stereo FM transmitters (MP3 to Car radio type), and matching FM band receivers in a 1U rack box.
But you need to know the radio frequency bands used, and need at least 5~6 frequencies available (auto channel hopping) if the radio spectrum is already used.

Here are some pictures of his creation.
I am not that keen on the rack unit format for the receiver.




Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

RogerVG8EX

#72
You can buy a Roland GK-KIT-GT3 and change the 13 pin output with a VGA female connector and then use a wireless VGA to go to a converter that converts the VGA  into a normal 13 pin. If you want you can replace the GR/GI/VG/GP 13 pin input with a VGA female connector

gumtown

Quote from: Roger GR S/D on January 12, 2016, 01:05:10 PM
You can buy a Roland GK-KIT-GT3 and change the 13 pin output with a VGA female connector and then use a wireless VGA to go to a converter that converts the VGA  into a normal 13 pin. If you want you can replace the GR/GI/VG/GP 13 pin input with a VGA female connector

And this actually works ?? LOL   ::)
Can you show me a picture of it working..
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

gumtown

Just ordered some materials and going to try out an idea for a wireless GK.
Been researching for a while and have decided the best way to go is analog audio for the 7 channels required + low speed digital for the GK Vol/GK Sw/S1/S2 and avoid the digital audio latency problem all together.
It has been frustrating to find good highly integrated analog radio chips with digital tuning, as most are now obsolete or at EOL.

It will be fun to play with and trial..
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/