The Alto TS212 isnt working for me

Started by Redvers, May 08, 2016, 08:19:09 AM

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Redvers

It's just not loud enough. Even if I'm miced up and the monitor is four feet from my head I can't get it into 1x12 combo territory without horrible class d clipping. I'm in a four piece covers band, I'm the only guitar.

The strange thing is the driver seems fine, it's the tweeter that clips first, mostly with amp model sounds. The acoustic guitar sounds fare better.

The crossover is at 2khz and I think the trouble area is around 3khz. What can I do? Give up in FRFR? Eq the problem away? Compression ? I can't be the only guy who plays in a fairly loud band and uses modelling.

Elantric

#1
It's all about how loud you need to be to compete with your drummer.

The solution might be placing 5ft high Plexiglass panels in front of the drummer. And lower the onstage decibel level.
Or for electric guitar sounds, use a genuine combo amp in a traditional backline behind you. 

Both my Supro Saturn Reverb or Vox AC-15 15 watt Guitar amps are much higher SPL in the guitar frequencies than my 500watt RMS Alto clone (Alesis) powered cab 

I still use my 1999 Roland Cube 80XL for most gigs just because it gets the job done at any venue

I only use a pair of Alesis /Alto powered cabs when I'm performing more Acoustic guitar tones or being more the role of a keyboard player supplying lots of synth parts for the band. For straight guitar at jams I prefer a tube guitar amp , for loud cover band I prefer a pair of Cube 80XLs-one for a DSP Amp modeler the other for Synths

Edit - lately I'm using Helix into a pair of ALesis Alpha 112 rear gain control set midway up  (Noon), and have plenty of volume to compete with my Keith Moon drummer


Redvers

I'm not really trying to compete with the drummer at this point, just have enough volume to monitor myself while wearing ear protection,which you'd think a 1x12 PA pointed at your head would do. Some of the places I play involve carrying an amp a few blocks so a two speaker option isn't going to work.  If I'm going to compromise on the acoustic sounds on the GP-10 and use a combo I might as well just use a pedal board.

Elantric

#3
If your GP-10 patches have excessive low frequencies, this has the effect of minimizing the maximum sound pressure level available from the Alto TS speaker - create patches with more midrange and leave the Bass frequencies to your Bass player   

Try a Cube Street EX too

It's Stereo, full range and gets plenty Loud and easy to carry

QuoteI'm not really trying to compete with the drummer at this point, just have enough volume to monitor myself while wearing ear protection,which you'd think a 1x12 PA pointed at your head would do.

With no backline amps . you must have a sufficient Front of House PA to deliver the sound of the whole band to the audience. That PA is Not aimed at the stage.

If a 1000 watt self powered PA cab (Alto TS212) stage monitor aimed at your head is not loud enough, that suggests your bandmates stage volume is too loud. 90% of the time this is due to the volume of the Acoustic Drumset, necessitating high volume stage monitors to compete.

Also if you must wear  hearing protection at gigs, this also indicates to me your bands on stage volume is extremely high.

This was the solution for my band


https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CSPA55--clearsonic-a5-5-panels-5-panels

The next step is IEMs ( In Ear Monitors)  - IMHO the most versatile band is one that can gig anywhere, any volume, and toward that goal, weening the band off traditional amps and acoustic drums  - and teach the band to rehearse in a living room with V-Drums and DSP Amp modelers feeding a JamHub TourBus with each member controlling their in ear monitor  / headphone "More of Me" mix really allowed the band to sound better, and allow the PA sound man to make the band sound best at any venue / any volume.


Tonemasterus

Has to be your volume level of the band?  I couldn't get mine above halfway volume wise, too loud, so if you can't hear yourself your band is way too loud in my opinion. 

Chumly

#5
Reducing / eliminating your on-stage volume and going with in-ears is one way around the problem, but probably not what you wanted to hear.  If you are committed to using full-range monitoring on stage, and one speaker is the most you are willing to carry, then you will have to buy a considerably better speaker than the one you have now, again probably not what you wanted to hear.

To expect your modest single speaker to perform at what I gather is your expected levels is unreasonable, unless your gain-staging is incorrect, or your 120 V source cannot supply sufficient VA (volts x amps) or you have a defective speaker, all of which is possible but does not sound overly likely based on what you've said so far.

You should know that ear protection attenuates the sound level, and the fact that you need it says a lot (not in a good way!).
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

Redvers

Yeah I've been wearing ear protection ever since standing next to drummers in the band. I know it's a hindrance but my point is that guitar amps are loud enough to cut through ear protection, so is there a PA speaker that can do the same? I didn't expect this to push like a guitar amp but I thought at around 500 watts rms it would at least be good enough for monitoring. It's very strange that the mids seem to be the first to clip and not the bass/high treble.

Chumly

#7
Your point that guitar amps are loud enough to cut through ear protection makes no sense I am sorry to say and you should re-read all the help provided by everyone here.  A guitar amp is not a PA speaker for many reasons that would take too long to address here, but suffice it to say that one of them is frequency response (guitar amp's are much-much more limited than PA speakers).

Your perceptions of distortion are subjective have a look-see into psychoacoustics. As to your assessment "I thought at around 500 watts rms it would at least be good enough" you must remember that assuming the unit is consuming 500 watts RMS of power (an assumption you are making not me) that's not a good indicator of its actual acoustic output, nor for that matter of your subjective assessment of its acoustic output.

Again, if you are committed to using full-range monitoring on stage, and one speaker is the most you are willing to carry, then you will have to buy a considerably better speaker than the one you have now.

Again, to expect your modest single speaker to perform at what I gather is your expected levels is unreasonable, unless your gain-staging is incorrect, or your 120 V source cannot supply sufficient VA (volts x amps) or you have a defective speaker, all of which is possible but does not sound overly likely based on what you've said so far.

Again, you should know that ear protection attenuates the sound level, and the fact that you need it says a lot (not in a good way!).
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

admin

#8
QuoteI know it's a hindrance but my point is that guitar amps are loud enough to cut through ear protection, so is there a PA speaker that can do the same?
Meyer MFJ-210 powered stage monitor
These accomplish that goal and sound great - Cliff Chase at Fractal uses a pair of these at LA Amp Show to demonstrate their AXE-FX  / AX-8 DSP Amp modelers
https://www.proavmax.com/Meyer-Sound-MJF-210-High-Power-Low-Profile-Stage-p/msl-mjf210.htm

https://theatretechgeek.wordpress.com/2013/11/29/news-meyer-sound-introduces-its-lightest-self-powered-stage-monitor-the-mjf-210/


The Meyer MFJ-210 powered stage monitor
Meyer Sound has expanded its on-stage solutions with the new self-powered MJF-210 low-profile high-performance stage monitor. The MJF-210 is the lightest stage monitor in the company's product line, and carries the sonic performance of its popular MJF-212A stage monitor.

For more info about the Meyer Sound MJF-210 stage monitor, go to meyersound.com.

"The MJF-210 started with a customer's request to bring the intelligibility and power of the MJF-212A into a more production-friendly package," says Pablo Espinosa, chief loudspeaker designer and vice president of R&D. "The end result is a product that reflects users' needs in the field, and its small footprint also offers more flexibility in bringing the myriad self-powered advantages to the stage."

The MJF-210 features a low-profile design with an impressive power-to-size ratio, and very low distortion. Each monitor measures less than 14 inches high and weighs 67 pounds. The front of the MJF-210 slopes at an optimal 40 degrees from the stage, while the well-behaved constant directivity horn (50° H x 70° V) gives the performer more freedom to move on stage while staying within the wide vertical coverage. The drivers are powered by a three-channel Class-D amplifier.

For real-time monitoring of loudspeaker parameters, the MJF-210 can be integrated into the Compass RMS™ remote monitoring system using the optional RMS™ module. Compass RMS features the RMServer and can be controlled in the Compass software.

For applications with even higher power requirements, the MJF-212A stage monitor is available.


Elantric

#9
FWIW -the above Meyersound monitors run $5K

For one example more reasonably priced, EV EKX-12P
Guthrie Govan toured North America with the Aristocrats  - and on their last tour they used a Behringer X32 mixer and several of these EV EKX-12P's for both FOH and stage monitors




EV EKX-12P 1500watt RMS powered PA cab  - $749 each
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1119043&gclid=Cj0KEQjwx7u5BRC1lePz2biJpIYBEiQA-ZeDmtdG0sigSp8TJN9aaYHaLzdVbn8_hW8PtkPu3EZCXhEaAnff8P8HAQ&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C103820129762%2C&Q=&A=details



Redvers

Quote from: Chumly on May 08, 2016, 10:46:43 AM
Your point that guitar amps are loud enough to cut through ear protection makes no sense I am sorry to say and you should re-read all the help provided by everyone here.  A guitar amp is not a PA speaker for many reasons that would take too long to address here, but suffice it to say that one of them is frequency response (guitar amp's are much-much more limited than PA speakers).

Your perceptions of distortion are subjective have a look-see into psychoacoustics. As to your assessment "I thought at around 500 watts rms it would at least be good enough" you must remember that assuming the unit is consuming 500 watts RMS of power (an assumption you are making not me) that's not a good indicator of its actual acoustic output, nor for that matter of your subjective assessment of its acoustic output.

Again, if you are committed to using full-range monitoring on stage, and one speaker is the most you are willing to carry, then you will have to buy a considerably better speaker than the one you have now.

Again, to expect your modest single speaker to perform at what I gather is your expected levels is unreasonable, unless your gain-staging is incorrect, or your 120 V source cannot supply sufficient VA (volts x amps) or you have a defective speaker, all of which is possible but does not sound overly likely based on what you've said so far.

Again, you should know that ear protection attenuates the sound level, and the fact that you need it says a lot (not in a good way!).

I think the context is important here. I wear ear protection mostly because of acoustic drums, a funk based drummer, so not even heavy. I have a bit of tinnitus. I've never played a gig that would accommodate perspex drums screens and I probably never will. In the same vein I'll probably never wear in ear monitors, again just not the equipment we or any others in our circuit deal in. I usually play a 30 watt open backed valve combo which I've done with or without micing up in the past and everyone in the band and the sound guy is happy with it.

I'm aware of technical specs of these two completely different amps, but at the end of the day I only have reviews of others to go on. So when people say its plenty loud for gigging I assume that an 1100watt peak rated amp would at least get close to a 30 watt valve amp. But it doesn't. And that's fine but so long as I'm not misunderstanding something...

Elantric

#11
QuoteI'm aware of technical specs of these two completely different amps, but at the end of the day I only have reviews of others to go on. So when people say its plenty loud for gigging I assume that an 1100watt peak rated amp would at least get close to a 30 watt valve amp. But it doesn't. And that's fine but so long as I'm not misunderstanding something...

I understand it completely.

In my own situation, now that I own a nice Les Paul,


Ive been listening to more Mike Bloomfield, and playing more jams with a 15 watt all tube amps. My  EHX OD Glove pedal feeding my Cube 80XL  delivers a great tube amp like sound. but as luck would have it, I jammed last weekend with my idols  - Fito de la Parra and Larry Taylor of Canned Heat, and due to do that again soon (when the planets are aligned I can channel the gods of blues guitar reasonably well upon demand ) and for me, a DSP modeler feeding a PA cab remains the wrong tool in that situation. Instead my Supro Saturn Reverb was ideal, and suits everyones comfort zone and inspired a great experience for all involved  - and thats what counts   





I know many folks reading a forum catered to modern "VGuitarists", the above gear suggestions seems "too old school" and perhaps not relevant for folks enamored with the latest Gk 13 pin gear,  But understand I view the latest DSP tools as elements to augment my sonic tool chest. I've been playing guitar since 1967, and still too "old school" - these latest DSP gizmos get close, but remain a compromise if you play dynamically and get tone from your fingers have ears. For me the DSP gear still cant duplicate the magic of traditional tools in a traditional band situation.

And I know several folks here who will read the above, and think "your full of ****"  and then fight and defend their current DSP gear choices, and tell me it can blow the doors off an old tube amp - But thats just me and my expectations based upon my years of exposure working with many great professional musicians.

And its easier for me to load in a 28 pound guitar amp for a typical jam with an acoustic drummer, and no need for a lengthy sound check, and getting frustrated with your live sound.   

Use the appropriate music gear for the current gig that allows you to best express yourself musically. 


Here's gear I used at recent gig


Redvers

The funny thing is I love the amp sounds on the GP-10 and would happily gig with them over a valve amp, but if it means getting PA equipment that's on par with the band PA I might have to rethink.

Elantric

#13
I use the Godin LGX-SA + GP-10 + TC Helicon FX-150  at low volume gigs where I need to play acoustic guitar sounds and occasional electric guitar sounds, where a open back tube amp would be way too loud and never work, and the drummer is playing a Cajon or with wrapped sticks and a small kit


Before I load gear for a gig, I always find out in advance what the expected volume level will be, and what type kit is the drummer using, and what type amp rig is the other guitarist using?  Bulk of the time my Cube80XL+ small Pedal board works for any situation. My Kemper is studio only, my AXE-FX still has yet to be used live , because I'm typically performing in  venues at low / moderate volume, often with no PA (Surf Band) . A Backline Guitar Amp instead of IEM's still works best for me   

Cups

Haven't quite gigged with my 600watt Impulse yet but went to a couple of loud jams and I too am surprised how badly it keeps up with a band. Mine wasn't ideally positioned though so I'll keep my hopes up.

Elantric

#15
If your DSP Amp Modeler patches exhibit excessive low frequencies, they might sound great at low volume at home, but know this has the effect of minimizing the maximum sound pressure level available at your live gig for guitar frequencies from your FRFR powered PA cab. If you feed a lot of bass into your Powered PA cab, its power amp will work harder and generate heat and most modern Powered PA cabs have built  thermal management and compression  that kicks in and will minimize the possible max volume level. If you cut the bass, the PA cab will get louder SPL.     On your DSP Amp modeler,  create patches with more midrange and lower the Bass frequencies  - leave room for your Bass player to handle those low notes and your band's live  sound will improves and be less muddy with more note definition.     

The dbx GO-Rack set to Mid Boost inserted between your DSP Amp modeler and your FRFR Power PA cab might instantly solve your problems of being heard on stage at live gigs. 



or consider other EQ tools for guitarists 

Cups

I played a few loud gigs and if I position my Impulse correctly I can hear myself quite well. I'm really liking my kit these days.

rolandvg99

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but way to many musicians use plugs and try to compensate the loss of listening volume by turning up even louder. It all ends in a cacophony of clipping, howling wedges. If one uses a PA cab it needs to be at head level  or sat down as a wedge. IEM is sometimes the best solution and the reason I've been using them since the 90's.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

vtgearhead

I have hearing damage that resulted from a rare prescription drug side-effect and cannot tolerate even modest levels on stage without ear plugs or IEMs.  Ear plugs bring everything down to a range where my ears are more linear in response and actually make it easier for me to hear myself.  Just trying to make the point that the use of ear plugs does not itself imply that your band is too loud on stage.

rolandvg99

Quote from: snhirsch on September 30, 2016, 04:54:13 AM
I have hearing damage that resulted from a rare prescription drug side-effect and cannot tolerate even modest levels on stage without ear plugs or IEMs.  Ear plugs bring everything down to a range where my ears are more linear in response and actually make it easier for me to hear myself.  Just trying to make the point that the use of ear plugs does not itself imply that your band is too loud on stage.

Certainly not, but many try to compensate the loudness drop by turning up the backline and/or monitors. I use Starkey custom moulded noise plugs with ER25s myself when attending concerts or participating in jam sessions without my own gear.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Giuseppe

I'm using GR55 and the Alto TS212 for reheaersing with my band. I'm also having trouble being heard. I have noticed mid range and high tones cut through better but some guitar and some synth gets lost (piano and horn tones don't seem to be audible. I don't have it on a stand - just sitting on some gear. I was thinking of getting a stand and seeing if it helped. I have been thinking of giving up on the FRFR but I enjoy the COSM modeling for alt tunings and I'm still hoping to blend in synth piano and horns. I also have started using ear protection due to the Drummer. Without the drummer, it seems the volumes are fine once we have to overcome the kit it seems everyone gets too loud and 212 isn't up to it. I was thinking i could also run a pair of them but it seems like one should be loud enough to handle this situation.

chrish

I refuse to play with most kit drummers, my hearing is just too important. The last band i played in had a hand drummer/percussion. He also plays kit drums but not with us. With us, his largest cymbal was 8'' and he hit with hands or brushes.

when he needed to be louder, we miked the drums and sent it out past the stage. Same for guitars. Low stage volumes are important.

Giuseppe

I agree with your decision but I don't think I can make that work for me.

Giuseppe

I recently purchased a Mesa 5:50 express that was DOA. The vendor was less than helpful but Mesa was good enough to send me a new speaker after we did some over the phone diagnostics. I did the repair yesterday and plugged in. At the 5 watt setting if filled the room and that is just no something I have been able to get with my GR55 and the ALTO's. I love the flexibility of the rig and we use a lot of alt tuning so it is great to have just one guitar and no need to constantly retune. However, the rig just can't seem to cut through the typical "acoustic drums and everyone else has an amp" situation. The synth tones seem to have and even harder time cutting through. Tried the Roland Cube 80 and the Alto. Not sure what to try next. A CLR monitor? Supposed to be good but now out of stock and high $. Run the guitar through the Mesa and give up on synth? Sell the GR55 and just go back to pedals? Like the thing at low volumes but need to be able to use it 

whippinpost91850

I run my Kemper and GR55 through my Atomic CLR neo and it works great