FTP - Help me with my FTP MainStage setup...

Started by multivir, September 02, 2013, 08:10:30 AM

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multivir

Hi,

So I've been experimenting with my FTP for a few days now. Currently it seems that Apple's MainStage seems to be the way to go if you want to use FTP in a live setup.
Here's what I want to do: Lay down some synth pad chords / atmospheric sounds, have them ring out (or loop them) and play with my Kemper on top of that sound - without the synth adding more notes to what was played in the "first round".

I'm new to MainStage, so maybe some of the more experienced members can chime in on the concepts...

- I noticed that CC 64 (IIRC) is usually the sustain pedal. Is there a different way to do an "ifinite hold" than just sustain or is that (generally) the same thing?

- What's the approach to set up a patch that does what I describe above? Currently, when I turn down the volume of the synth (to play on top of a ringing synth pad chord), the chord will also go away. Makes sense, but I only want to suppress the pad sound created by my noodeling, while the pad I set to noodle over should still remain.

How do I do that? Multiple tracks in the same setup? Switch from one to the other? Do you guys set the volume on the guitar (f.e. pickup volume knob up / FTP volume knob down) or leave both open and use MainStage as a midi-controllable mixer?

- If I want to loop things (midi controllable, from my Gordius Little Giant, both the Kemper and the MIDI synth signal), then I have to feed the Kemper signal into the computer, which is something that I'm not sure is the best idea. I'd prefer a hardware solution so if my MacBook crashes for whatever reason, I still have a working guitar signal minus the synth. I do understand that MainStage comes with the Loopback plugin. I'd prefer to use my Boomerang, but it seems to be a little more complicated than I hoped for because of lack of MIDI start / stop / record of my Boomerang III - which means way more cables than necessary with a looper in my back line or computer.

Any hints on how to set the whole thing up properly / as simple as possible? I'm also open to other solutions (like Ableton etc.) - I just want this to work reliably.

Thanks,

M.

Elantric

#1
You are asking for "Hold" function with FTP and it is described in the manual on how to use a MIDI Footpedal to enable /disable "Hold" in the Tripleplay Control Panel

http://www.fishman.com/software/tripleplay/download/tripleplay_user_guide.pdf

See page 13

Controlling TriplePlay Software Via External MIDI Device
Users may want to control TriplePlay functions using an external device. Once a device is connected to your
computer, select its input port via the Preferences menu, under Options from the pull down menus. The Foot
pedal MIDI input allows you to select your MIDI input device.
The TP application has five possible externally controlled functions. These should be sent via MIDI channel one:
1. Hold / Loop. Send CC 66 value 127, 0 on release, for hold/loop
2. Patch up. CC 68 value 128, 0 on release for patch up
3. Patch down. CC 67 value 127, 0 on release for patch down
4. Program change. A MIDI program change will change to a user patch number which is one greater (depending
on the pedal brand – some pedals will correct for this automatically, and the numbers will correspond)
than the program change number. Program change commands will only work if you have currently or previously
opened the user patch list and currently have a user patch selected. It will not work within the default
patch list. So, for example, if you send program change 5 on midi channel 1, and you have the user patch list
engaged in our software, TriplePlay will go straight to user patch #6.
5. Volume expression. CC 80, controlled via expression pedal. Use this command for control of TriplePlay
volume post Master fader (for this to work, the final volume dialog in the Preferences menu must be toggled to
on.

superawesomegreat

Quote from: multivir on September 02, 2013, 08:10:30 AM

I'd prefer to use my Boomerang, but it seems to be a little more complicated than I hoped for because of lack of MIDI start / stop / record of my Boomerang III - which means way more cables than necessary with a looper in my back line or computer.


The newest firmware for the rang has midi start and stop commands supported, but I don't think that will solve your problem.  I used a rang briefly to sync to my DAW's clock before selling it and moving my rig further into the software realm, so I can't really help you, but I would suggest getting the latest firmware from the bottom of this page...

http://www.boomerangmusic.com/E156.shtml

multivir

Thanks guys,

The reason I wanted to use MainStage instead of the FTP software is that switching between patches seems to take up a couple of seconds, while MainStage is pretty quick. In general, I don't really trust computers on stage. And it seems that MS has been around longer than the FTP software which still has a bit of that "pre-release feel" :-) I think I'll tinker some more with the FTP software then.

Regarding the looper - I am aware of the latest software update for the Rang, but that's only for MIDI clock and not for start / stop / record etc. commands. There are some devices on the market that offer the option, but none of them have been convincing for me so far. There are a few delay pedals that offer both MIDI and looping, but there are always pitfalls like f.e. on the Eventide TimeFactor, you can trigger start / stop / record via MIDI, but you can't delete recorded content via a MIDI command. On the pedal, you have to push two switches at once. It's a mono looper with only a few seconds of looping time...

Line 6 has MIDI commands for the looper on the M9, but the AD/DA conversion gets bad reviews. Pigtronix Infinity currently has MIDI support for sync and switching between pre-recorded tracks, but that's it. I'm still waiting on TCs reply concerning the vocal multi-fx with loopers. The Roland loop stations are too big and to my knowledge also don't offer full midi support. :-(((

If Boomerang just came up with a firmware update, that would be the easiest solution. And I wouldn't have to spend a couple of hundred bucks on the next gizmo and take a loss on selling the Rang.

utensil

I've been trying to tie down a mac only setup for my band jam sessions where I can come up with a looped bassline (usually vst driven) and then do some noodling on top of it all improvised. Initially I was really keen to get mainstage working because of the patch switching abilities and an entire bunch of patches could be saved in one concert and switched between since I prefer VSTs to my GR-55. Unfortunately I found the Mainstage looper sucked.Its horribly buggly for me (mainstage 3 and 2.1.2). As I need the initial loop to set the overall tempo rather than me play to a metronome, it would often fail to set the concert tempo.

In a nutshell I'm now trying ableton. It is also less than ideal because having a patch system is not really practical, and loading a separate live set (using onstage) for each "patch" is not practical due to switch times. However the looper is much better and more reliable.

The best software looper I've seen is the Loopy app on IOS, since you can easily keep the layers separated and all the loops sync to the first loop. My next option is to go to an IPad with audiobus,Jamup pro, Sample tank and the loopy app.

IMO the FTP software should be avoided live as when added to the already risky software system I had a bug at least once per session which is not acceptable.


multivir

Unstable software is definitely unacceptable. I don't think that an iPad-only setup is practical, because you'll have to take your hands off of your guitar to switch between the apps. For the looper alone - why not? I just have to investigate how to hook up midi & an audio interface so that it's really stable and not just an almost working DIY solution.

aliensporebomb

#6
Forrest Roush (Fuzz) runs an Ableton setup live and seems to do a good job with it - you could ask him about his experiences as he just did a Dream Dome performance that was an hour long with that setup and it seemed pretty seamless to me.

My own case I'm using three different loopers (two hardware, one software).   My whole live gigging process is looped audio.

Hardware I've used has been the Electro-Harmonix Stereo Memory Man with Hazarai (a bit bare bones compared to the complex loopers of today but great audio quality and generally pretty giggable but no undo or save loop capability), Boss RC-300 Loopstation (lots of plusses, some minuses - it's very large physically and like all multi-loop loopers has a bit of a learning curve and there's a bit of a trick to get it to follow midi clock), and software wise I'm using Expert Sleeper's "Augustus Loop" which I've been using for at least four years now.    As for hardware loopers I've recently looked at the Pigtronix Infinity (I might get one of those too), the Boomerang, the EHX 45000 and the new "connect us together" Jam Man setups.  Lots to think about.  Many options with more coming every day.

Augustus has worked great in the studio but I haven't much felt like carting a laptop to gigs.  I'd also need a dedicated controller for it but the software is very good stuff. 

There are lots and lots of solutions - I've used Mainstage for creating audio but not to do the looping.  That's why Augustus or Ableton or any number of solutions might work better for that.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

QuoteIMO the FTP software should be avoided live as when added to the already risky software system I had a bug at least once per session which is not acceptable.

But remember the FTP Control Panel is still an evolving product and it will be incrementally different over the next few months.

multivir

Quote from: Elantric on September 03, 2013, 07:30:25 AM
But remember the FTP Control Panel is still an evolving product and it will be incrementally different over the next few months.

Agreed, but would you really use it for a live setup if you had to gig with it today?

cc

Quote from: utensil on September 03, 2013, 02:43:20 AM
IMO the FTP software should be avoided live as when added to the already risky software system I had a bug at least once per session which is not acceptable.

I was wondering if you have reported these bugs to Fishman.

utensil

No I didn't, Many issues were with the first update of the software to 64 bit, wherein the application would fail to launch after the first successfull launch and loading the plugin in ableton would cause ableton to crash. Once the next version released it worked but It still crashes occasionally. I've also faced an issue where in the midst of playing a patch the velocities would suddenly drop and remain at a lower level unless I close the app and then it immediately goes back to the "correct" velocity in basic mode or if I reopen the software.

I can't reliably reproduce this but it happens frequently over the course of an hour of play and overall It started to be more consistent to just use it in basic mode and change between trigger and smooth modes using the D-pad which was my must need feature and I was very glad it was implemented. I know the software is rapidly improving but as per my last try it was still not as reliable live as in basic mode. Even with the bugs ironed out , I think 2 features that would enable me to replace the DAW for live would be:

A universal tempo (set via input,tap or via external) for hosted plugins.
A built in Looper mappable to midi and keypad.





Elantric

#11
QuoteAgreed, but would you really use it for a live setup if you had to gig with it today?
------
No.
Today I use FTP with ipad. Its workable today for my needs.
Even with all the bugs fixed, I doubt they can address the 5-10  seconds gap to load a new patch.
By contrast my FTP  + ipad with Sampletank reloads a new patch under a second and meets my live gig needs today and remains the best midi guitar rig I ever owned.

multivir

Elantric,

Do you use an audio interface with that setup for live gigs or do you connect the iPad to the PA via the iPad's headphone jack?

Elantric

I use one of these connected to the ipad headphone output with great results



Rolls DB24 Stereo DI box for mobile devices.
http://www.rolls.com/pdf/M_DB24.pdf


superawesomegreat

Quote from: multivir on September 03, 2013, 12:45:27 AM
If Boomerang just came up with a firmware update, that would be the easiest solution. And I wouldn't have to spend a couple of hundred bucks on the next gizmo and take a loss on selling the Rang.

Call them and leave them a message asking for a firmware update that fills your needs.  The thing that sold me on the Boomerang III in the first place was because I called them, left a message, and the one guy from their youtube videos (think his name was Mike) called me back and was willing to chat about the upcoming firmware release (before 3.0 and before I had bought one) and asked me what else I'd like to see - that's the type of thing I appreciate, so they might have something for you if you let them know your situation.

multivir

I already contaced Boomerang via e-mail. The thing is... If they made it MIDI-compatible, then nobody would by their sidecar controller anymore...