Poll - Would you buy a new Roland "VG-100" COSM Guitar / Amp / FX Modeler?

Started by Elantric, April 08, 2015, 03:37:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mbenigni

QuoteHey I just noticed:  MusicOverGear is back!

Hey I just noticed:  MusicOverGear is back!  :)

Elantric


mbenigni

"Maybe - If it included new features not already in the  VG-99 - and priced accordingly."

I can't vote yes without knowing which features, after all, and "priced accordingly" is a loaded gun.  ;)  My "VG-100" would essentially be a super-charged, slightly more extensible GP-10..  (So maybe I was never the intended demographic for this question to begin with?)  It's nice to have the option to bring very little to the gig, and only bring more (e.g. more pedals, or an editing interface) if you need it.  So starting with the GP-10, do as much of the following as possible:

- Easily programmable/ tweakable in realtime via an iOS/ Android GUI.  (Though I really love SuperNiCd's idea for an "optional desktop sound designer console", cost-prohibitive as it would likely be.)

-  Add a few rotary encoders for "on-deck" programming.

- Every pedal on the device - even the existing patch up/down pedals, must be independently programmable on a global or per-patch basis to do everything the CTL pedals presently do, or to select between non-contiguous patches.  This, and the EXP2/CTL3-4 input on the rear panel, would make for a small but extremely versatile floorboard that would travel light but serve a wide variety of needs.

- Put back the 5-pin MIDI ports for those who require larger floorboards, I/O to legacy synths, etc.

- Make USB MIDI class-compliant, for driving softsynths on portable devices, e.g. iOS.

- Add (at least one) smart FX loop that can be routed anywhere in the virtual signal chain (at minimum: pre-amp, post-amp) with targetable parameters for send and return level.

- One more effect block with overdrives, etc.  In my brief time with the GP-10 it felt a little too easy to run out of options.

- Nice to have:  One or more PCM voices (though the preceding MIDI improvements would make it easier to do without.)

- Nice to have (especially for those truly looking for a VG-99 replacement):  dual COSM paths for guitar and amp modeling.

- Just dreaming:  A new cable/ connector standard that's more reliable than the familiar 13-pin GK cable.  Optical?  Wireless?  I have no idea - just something that doesn't make me vaguely nervous all the time.

- Still dreaming:  A new GK pickup with pickup selector switch and 2 assignable knobs.

But how to put a price on all of this...

Elantric

Quote(Though I really love SuperNiCd's idea for an "optional desktop sound designer console", cost-prohibitive as it would likely be.)


Sounds like the 1985 GR-700 with optional PG200 programmer




at least Antares got it right with the ATG-1 and iPad Control interface


and FWIW - one already exists for VG-99




Vade

I answered yes to a VG100 but for me the key would be moving towards a buy one and be done model. I don't mean that a VG100 should do everything you can think of and cost $2500 or so. Instead it would mean buying into a modular system that was designed to work synergistically and cover all the usual bases. The heart of the system might be the VG100 with state of the art guitar/amp COSM, seamless patch switching, alternative tuning, and a robust system of FX. Roland could sell that at a reduced cost point by moving the synth portion to a second module which was designed to easily connect to the VG100 in a pleasing form factor. How about a looping module? How about a midi control module? How about an audio interface and mixing module? How about a microphone based module for vocalists and wind instrument effects? Bring each module into the system at an acceptable price point; say $200 to $500 each and stagger the module updates. We could buy the whole system or just a piece at a time as income and preference allows. Have software modules as well to integrate the whole on ios, PC, or Mac. I'm thinking we'd do much better to have a modular system based on solid engineering so that all the modules work together without the jury rigging and workarounds we have to engage in when putting our rigs together now. If well done then that would entice me into selling my current rig and throwing money at Roland.

Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Rhcole

Imagine a GP-10 with the Osc synth replaced by a real, updated COSM synth, not the patchwork COSM synths included in the GP-10. It would need some real love put into the waveforms so that a good programmer could essentially replicate almost any COSM synth sound with it. Dual oscillators, dual FX banks, pitch shifters, and please either an ADSR for volume envelopes and filters or, come on, at least a capable set of ARs. Throw in a routable LFO too. In other words, a COSM version of a late 70's polysynth.

You can do it Roland! Fly Tinkerbell, fly! (Clapping hands enthusiastically)

germanicus

I voted for the first option, but they really would need to dramatically improve their guitar modeling and pitch to midi. I prefer the JTV modeling to Rolands, and the Tripleplay to Rolands midi.

Improved Alternate tuning is critical as well (the vg99 exhibits warbly artifacts with dramatic pitch shifts). I really enjoy using acoustic guitars in alternate tunings and love using the Variax for this, so any product that competes in this regard would have my attention and interest.

Im not interested in them including internal midi playback modules/synths, as what is available in third party software is better than 99% of what roland has available, even if you include their flagship synth products.

I dont need the HRM gr-300 type synths. They are neat, but I just don't ever use them (I respect that others do! just my 2 cents). Much rather have more numerous and versatile acoustic emulations (Bouzoukis, Mandolins, Oud, Resonators that don't sound horribly thin, better nylon string guitars, etc.)
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

Jim Williams

Now here is a novel idea....

Make a full function pedal board with the full range of IO including 2 external control jacks and 2 amp control jacks. Ship with a basic set of amp, guitar models and features. Then you sell new features one at a time or in add on packs. This way the user could personalize their VG processor. You would have say enough Guitars, amps and effects to get you going but add more later via Boss Tone Central. This way Roland could sell a new VG unit with a set of full features for a introductory price and not have to dumb it down to make it affordable. In the long run most users will spend more money over time than they would at one time. I have so many ideas for such a product that I can't jot them all down at once but guitar players could be dumping money into this one product for years to come.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

acousticglue

I agree with RHCole. The VG8EX and the VG99 and GP10 all had some synthesis built in. To get once and for all beyond the hurdle there must be correctly built in oscillators and maybe be able to USB add and manipulate sounds forms in real time/mangle them. That would be a Rompler but is the way to go. Latency of hitting strings and incorrect vibrations and building gizmos that can do it better and better needs keep going but VG99 synths were on their way and should have been totally explored. I really dont buy one of these things wishing for anything else. I think the GP10 fell drastically short of anything close. You need many sound guys to come onboard and design it right. 2 or 4 quad processors with 12GB memory should do it. Add some guitar modelling and string pitch shifting and its bad to the bone. VG99 was best unit yet.

whippinpost91850

Quote from: Jim Williams on April 10, 2015, 08:59:12 PM
Now here is a novel idea....

Make a full function pedal board with the full range of IO including 2 external control jacks and 2 amp control jacks. Ship with a basic set of amp, guitar models and features. Then you sell new features one at a time or in add on packs. This way the user could personalize their VG processor. You would have say enough Guitars, amps and effects to get you going but add more later via Boss Tone Central. This way Roland could sell a new VG unit with a set of full features for a introductory price and not have to dumb it down to make it affordable. In the long run most users will spend more money over time than they would at one time. I have so many ideas for such a product that I can't jot them all down at once but guitar players could be dumping money into this one product for years to come.

Jim, great idea

ericar123

Honestly I think if Roland just improved the quality with a pickup that converts to digital then sends digital signal to VG to make the original signal cleaner then upgrade the processing power and sound quality of each effect and model then the layout could be the same. I have never heard any Fractal stuff but I keep reading about the beautiful sound quality. This is what I want in the next VG. I mentioned in an earlier post about how every some companies like Pigtronix can take an effect that has been around forever and still make it better. This is what I want Roland to do. Roland thinks that they need to keep adding amazing new features in order to get us to buy the next big thing. I think that a gradual evolution is what we need.

MusicOverGear

Thought of a couple more things.

For sound design in software I have come to rely on exciters and EQ as last-resort kind of fixes. One gives you extra overtones and the other helps shape overall overtones. I'd love to see just a good basic exciter like the one in Logic. I would REALLY love to see a powerful, comprehensive EQ, as seen in literally any DAW. Also the EQ MUST be able to have >= 2 instances per chain and move to anywhere in the chain.

E.G. in logic if I get something as close as I can get using ES2 but it's not quite there, I can put an exciter on it to fill out some missing high end. Then I use Match EQ against the sound I am cloning and people invariably remark that I cloned the sound exactly, even though the difference is really obvious if you A/B them in the project. Match EQ is just a lazy way to do it - any good EQ with lots of points and fully parametric can do it.

Anyway I think those two things would go far toward opening up any kind of sound design box.

Virtual Madness

I voted: "Yes - If it included new features not already in the  VG-99 - and priced accordingly."

One thing I would love to see in a new VG unit, is the ability to plug my 1956 Les Paul into the unit, play some open strums on it, then play some open strums on my GK-equipped guitar, and have the VG unit automatically match the tone of the Les Paul. (or whatever guitar you are trying to model)

THAT'S what I think a guitar modeler AT THE LEAST should be able to do.

Now, this doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to tweak the sound to your hearts content, it's just that the initial step would be automated.

Add to that, the ability to create any kind of pickup/guitar combination (Gretsch Filtertron on a 12 string Tele?...NO PROBLEM!)

And finally, may we PLEASE be allowed to create "at the minimum" 3 virtual pickup guitars?

I know a lot of this is covered by Variax, but I prefer magnetic over piezo for modeling electric guitars.

One can dream, can't one?  :)
The greatest power in the universe is imagination!

Panthersn

Absolutely would buy a VG-100!!!!  ;D

I sold my 55 and picked up a 99 two months ago, I really like the 99 but there are a few things I miss from the 55.

My wish list:

Roland GT-100 Chassis, add a second row of pedals and use lighted stomp switches.  Or rack mount and update the FC-300.

Balanced XLR outs

MIDI

GK3 (I really hope they don't abandon this)

Second expression pedal

New editing software

Most of all......  Don't abandon it 6 months after release.  Take a page from Fractal and Kemper and keep developing updates!!


aliensporebomb

And don't bail on it after a couple marketing attempts.  I saw more GR-55 ads than for the VG-99.  And I only understood there was a GR-300 emulation inside the VG-99 after I read the article in Premiere Guitar that drive me down this path.

Pro players got a hold of this but only Adrian Belew, Vernon Reid, Frank Gambale and Andy Summers really latched onto the VG-99.

But what I want to know is could they please make a low profile wart for a GK4 or something?  Crimeny, that bulge is the most unslightly, ungainly, awkward thing ever.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

mbenigni

QuoteBut what I want to know is could they please make a low profile wart for a GK4 or something?

And is it completely insane to ask for a pickup selector switch?   ::)

Frank

Quote from: Elantric on April 09, 2015, 10:06:25 AM
My #1 wish is that the next Roland VG COSM Processor will be a VSTi/AU/"Plug In" implemented in software!!   

Roland will never do this and; it dates back to the 'HQ' series of sample CD's/ROMplers they released.
I was working in the music retail/distribution sector at this time and had a conversation with a guy who was doing sound design for Roland at the time.
He said that as a result of the level of piracy they'd encountered from purely software based products, that it was highly unlikely they'd ever go back to releasing software only products.
So the only way this will realistically happen is if it were in a UAD type format i.e. external DSP to run the processing algorithms.

Frank

Quote from: ericar123 on April 11, 2015, 09:30:57 AM
Honestly I think if Roland just improved the quality with a pickup that converts to digital then sends digital signal to VG to make the original signal cleaner then upgrade the processing power and sound quality of each effect and model then the layout could be the same. I have never heard any Fractal stuff but I keep reading about the beautiful sound quality. This is what I want in the next VG. I mentioned in an earlier post about how every some companies like Pigtronix can take an effect that has been around forever and still make it better. This is what I want Roland to do. Roland thinks that they need to keep adding amazing new features in order to get us to buy the next big thing. I think that a gradual evolution is what we need.

I think one of Roland's problems are/has always been the presets. Although I thought the VG-8EX had some semi useable/interesting ones.
Cheesy/dated effect laden presets really detract from the potential of the unit (have you seen the SY-300 demos?).
Companies such as Fractal, Kemper etc. seem to spend much more time on preset construction and give the product demonstrators the gear more than say, a few days before they have to go to a trade show.
Plus hiring mostly shredders for the demo staff is never going to produce material that strays too far from fusion/extended soloing.
Someone like Bill Ruppert or even somebody like Pete Thorn who are involved in production and touring would lend a wider appeal and a more expert hand in programming the unit.

MusicOverGear

I'm sure this has been said somewhere but I haven't seen it.

Did anyone else see the new Boss box and assume that that's the end of VG stuff as we know it? Since I got into VG last summer and spent WAY too many hours hacking together a usable rig (because Roland engineers did such an incomplete job), I have been convinced that the one thing Roland really needs is a usable pickup system that appeals to guitar players - or at least doesn't actively repel players of every stripe. They needed this decades ago. I wonder if they finally figured that out and their solution was, "That seems hard. Let's just filter regular pickup audio and call it a day."

I imagine that if the Boss pedal does extremely well it would be hard to convince the suits to put a lot more energy into 13-pin stuff. Very un-Kakehashi, but very 2015 IMO

BTW I thought of another thing I want on the VG-100: a knob on the physical interface (dedicated or assigned - I don't care) that controls/balances the level of USB audio volume. I use my GP-10 with MainStage and have to use a higher USB Audio In Level for MainStage than I do with at home with all my production/shedding apps. Main reason is that I want the treadle I have assigned to MainStage master volume to be in the same approximate range as FootVol on the GP-10. Anyway, pile that onto the wish list...

Now_And_Then

Quote from: MusicOverGear on April 17, 2015, 10:03:44 AM

Did anyone else see the new Boss box and assume that that's the end of VG stuff as we know it?

I think that the fate of GK and VG gear is heavily dependent on how well the SY-300 sells. Very heavily dependent...


Quote from: MusicOverGear on April 17, 2015, 10:03:44 AM
I have been convinced that the one thing Roland really needs is a usable pickup system that appeals to guitar players - or at least doesn't actively repel players of every stripe.

I think that the pickup is not the cause the slow GK-compatible device adoption; I would imagine that anyone who wants the sounds and the capabilities will tolerate with the pickup. It's hard to believe that anyone would limit themselves musically because of the pickup.

MusicOverGear

Just thought of another that's occurred to me 100x but I never write these down, since Roland is not interested in input from musicians.

Hardware buttons (probably assigned since not many people will use them) for transpose. I know it's silly on guitar but there are lots of jazz standards that I learned before I could really think of heavily modulating songs as shifting diatonic key centers, so when a singer comes along and wants Stella by Starlight in another key, it's much easier for me to transpose on the machine than on the brain.

Elantric

QuoteI imagine that if the Boss SY-300 pedal does extremely well it would be hard to convince the suits to put a lot more energy into 13-pin stuff.

Very true, IMHO it would be a sad tale if the Boss GP-10 was the end of the line for Hex Pickup "GK" processors from  Roland / Boss Corp.

But conceivably this might be the fact  - time will tell.

Frank

Quote from: Elantric on April 17, 2015, 10:17:33 AM
Very true, IMHO it would be a sad tale if the Boss GP-10 was the end of the line for Hex Pickup "GK" processors from  Roland / Boss Corp.

But conceivably this might be the fact  - time will tell.
It's only be out for about a year, I wonder if it's already outsold the VG-99?
Maybe the new forum memberships here are an indicator of it's success?

Elantric

I review all new memberships here.

Among new members in the past year, There remains a 10:1 preference for GR-55 over the GP-10

The GP-10 is subject to a bad 1st impression, with its patch navigation via only Up/Down pedals  - many incorrectly "mis- judge" the GP-10  as having "too few controls"
- which is too bad as the GP-10 actually has twice the live gig user controls of the GR-55.
For live gig guitar tones, the GP-10 works much better than GR-55 for my needs

QuoteBoss GP-10 has only been out for about a year, I wonder if it's already outsold the VG-99?

Its 300% more likely to find a GR-55 at your local Roland dealer -

Even today - Ive never seen a Boss GP-10 "in stock" and being sold off the floor at any music store - that includes many Guitar Centers in California.

In 2015, I suspect the GP-10 is not the sales success that the GR-55 continues to be.

Roland / Boss barely showed the GP-10 at 2015 NAMM - with no ability for USA dealers to demo the unit
 

Toby Krebs said it best
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13436.msg98737#msg98737

QuoteI specifically was wanting to finally be able to try the GP-10 at NAMM. They had one on the counter connected to nothing.No way to try it.The fellow behind the counter would hold it in his hand and describe its wonders lol! Almost like an old snake oil salesman. The Roland guys went on and on about the pedal switcher looper thing. If I had even had 10 minutes with a GP-10 I almost certainly would have bought one.

I don't give a rats about a pedal switching loop device and 20 pedals with a gigantor footprint.
Elantrics recommendation of the Joyo device is a much better option for that.

I will probably just wait for a GP-10 to show up used at GC and take it from there in a few months.
When the guy at Roland asked me about how his products are sold at my GC he was not impressed with my description.

No GP-10 to try
No GR55 to examine
No GK equipped guitar in the store

nothing
no no nada zip zilch....

and no salesperson with a clue about anything

I saw one employee from my local GC at the show waiting in line to get something signed by a guy in some metal band I never heard of who looked like a fricken vampire.

that's all I know.



Instead they were hyping the Eric Johnson Tone Capsule




and placing more focus on the "stillborn"



Boss ES-8 Switcher
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13074.msg98352#msg98352

- another $700 box that I predict will be blown out as the MF SDOTD for $199 next year.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/boss-es-8-effects-switching-system/j19627

Meanwhile the Joyo PXL Live

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13348.0

does 90% of what the Boss ES-8 does  - for $178
http://www.amazon.com/Joyo-PXL-LIVE-Programable-Controller/dp/B00L9D7X98
   

Frank

Quote from: Elantric on April 17, 2015, 11:31:29 AM
I review all new memberships here.

Among new members in the past year, There remains a 10:1 preference for GR-55 over the GP-10

The GP-10 is subject to a bad 1st impression, with its patch navigation via only Up/Down pedals  - many incorrectly "mis- judge" the GP-10  as having "too few controls"
- which is too bad as the GP-10 actually has twice the live gig user controls of the GR-55.
For live gig guitar tones, the GP-10 works much better than GR-55 for my needs

I think that's interesting as most of the 'young players' (read early 20's) I've shown the GP-10 to, like the compact form factor and software editor; I suppose this points to the fact that they are of the point and click generation.
Perhaps ironically, the effort Roland have made with bands like Arcane Roots on Tone central in order to appeal to a younger generation of players; most of them have little to no disposable income and even less of an awareness of 13 pin technology.

Quote from: Elantric on April 17, 2015, 11:31:29 AM
Its 300% more likely to find a GR-55 at your local Roland dealer -

Even today - Ive never seen a Boss GP-10 "in stock" and being sold off the floor at any music store - that includes many Guitar Centers in California.
In 2015, I suspect the GP-10 is not the sales success that the GR-55 continues to be.

Here in the UK I experience the opposite; I only see the GP-10 in music retailers and never come across the GR-55.
That said, with the tendency for people to buy online I suppose this isn't necessarily a great metric for sales.