GR-55 vs GR-300?

Started by molul, July 25, 2013, 01:33:02 AM

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molul

Currently the main problem I see with the GR55 is that playing very fast is not compatible at all with the PCM synths, and also that there are tracking problems in the 6th string. I wonder, is the tracking problem in the GK3 or in the GR55? I'd prefer the first option, as upgrading would be cheaper :)

How can Robert Fripp play synth sounds so fast? I was so hyped watching him playing his weird sound solos but then I played with the GR55 and I was like :-/

aliensporebomb

#1
Because he has a very fast, very accurate flatpicking style.  Listen to "Suite No. 1" on "The Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles and Fripp" and then realize that is Fripp's EARLY flatpicking technique - he got a lot better later and he was good then.

He's also got 30 years of playing on the Roland GR-300, arguably the fastest tracking polyphonic guitar synthesizer ever made.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

molul

#2
Lol I meant apart from his incredible technique :D

So, GR300 had better tracking than GR55??

aliensporebomb

#3
Dr. Wayne Joness here had a chart that showed the 300 was something like 5 milliseconds average if I'm not mistaken.

Steve?  Do you know where that chart is?  I did a cursory search but didn't see it in the list of results.  I looked at his website but since the redesign I can't find anything!

Regarding playing fast on guitar synth - you have to have a very fast, precise clean technique.  Keep working at it!

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

montyrivers

#4
Also in regards to whether tracking issues are due to the gk3 or the gr55, keep in mind that the gk 3 has nothing "intelligent" going on under the hood.  It's just 6 tiny humbuckers wired up to a summing board and routed through the 13 pin cable so the string processing can take place individually.  That being said, you need to set up the GK3 as close to Roland's specifications as possible to get the best performance. 

For guitar models, it's more forgiving but for pitch to midi conversion you need to have the pickup as close to the string and saddles as possible.  Also tweaking the string sensitivity in the GR 55 system menu also helps a lot.  If you're picking at full force and the strings exceed 100 on the meeter, then you need to lower the sensitivity some.

Toby Krebs

#5
Tweaking all the sensitivity parameters   makes a huge difference on the GR55. One other thing that I find helpful with all guitar synth playing is to be keenly aware of the anticipated picking you have to do. That is to be "slightly ahead" when picking notes. I do this automatically now but in the beginning I realized how important this was when playing synth only tones on my GR-1/33/20 etc...and now the 55. Mr. Fripp has mastered this nuanced bit of guitar synth technique.

molul

#6
Do you mean Fripp plays always a bit ahead so the sound fits the tempo? That sounds insane O_O Also, even if he does that perfectly, he plays quite fast sometimes and I've never heard the sound stopping due to tracking problems. I'd say he has a much better (and more expensive) device. Perhaps just the original GR300. I wonder why it had a much lower latency than later models :S

Elantric

#7
QuoteI wonder why it had a much lower latency than later models :S

The 1981 GR-300 never performed Analog to Digital conversion - it was more a pure analog 6 channel Synthesizer Using analog pitch detection schemes. Yes it was very fast - 3.3 milliseconds  low latency, remember you were limited to GR-300 sonic palette - no pianos.

More here:
http://www.marksmart.net/gearhack/gr300/analogmods/395report/Report.html

Operation of GR-300

The GR-300 was designed to be played from a specially-made Roland guitar fitted with a "hexaphonic" pickup that senses the sound of each string separately. The signals from this pickup run into the synthesizer unit where they are processed by six envelope followers and six pitch trackers.

Envelope Followers

Associated with each guitar string is an envelope follower circuit that outputs a voltage proportional to the current amplitude of the ringing guitar string. These voltages vary between 0 and 10 volts. A certain amount of audio-frequency ripple is present on these signals which does not cause a problem in the GR-300, where they are used only to control the amplitude of the synthesizer sound.


Pitch Detectors

The hexaphonic guitar signals also go into six circuits that output a voltage proportional to the cycle period of the guitar string's oscillation. Each string's circuit is calibrated so that the open string pitch produces a voltage of 10 volts, a note an octave higher produces 5 volts, another octave higher produces 2.5 Volts, etc. This period CV is at "TP-1" in the above schematic.

On a vibrating guitar string, the second harmonic frequently becomes louder than the fundamental during long notes. This often confuses pitch tracking circuits into thinking the player has suddenly played a note an octave higher. The result is an unwanted octave jump in the synthesizer sound. Great pains have been taken in the GR-300's design to prevent this problem:

At the input of the pitch tracking circuit are two analog bandpass filters to suppress the second harmonic (circled in red on the schematic). When notes below the sixth fret are played, the cutoff frequencies of the filters are both near the open string pitch. When notes above the sixth fret are played, the filters move to frequencies higher up the neck.

Another circuit later in the chain detects the sudden changes in period voltage that occur when the second harmonic gets as loud as the fundamental (circled in yellow on the schematic). When it sees these changes, it reduces the output voltage from the envelope follower, which in turn reduces the volume of the synth sound to make the problem less noticeable.







http://www.joness.com/gr300/GR-300.htm


QuoteDr. Wayne Joness here had a chart that showed the 300 was something like 5 milliseconds average if I'm not mistaken.

Steve?  Do you know where that chart is?

Latency Test Page shows GR-300 had 3.3milliseconds latency across all strings - This was in 1981
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm




musicman65

To simplify what Elantric said:

The GR300 uses the guitar's hex analog signal directly as the sound source for sythisis. It does not detect pitch and convert to MIDI.

The GR55 uses the guitar's hex signal to feed a pitch-to-MIDI converter that in turn drives a modern digital synthisizer. The pitch to midi takes time and is error prone.

Apples and Oranges. There simply is no direct comparison.

bd

molul

Thank you both for the info. As I said in another post, one of the most exciting things about this unit is this new world I'm learning about :)

Now it all makes sense. It's a shame that there's no real substitute for GR300. I love the sounds of Fripp's solos in songs like Sartori in Tangiers or The sheltering sky. Does the COSM synth sound get anything close to them?

Elantric

#10
QuoteNow it all makes sense. It's a shame that there's no real substitute for GR300

Well - the VG-99 does a decent job ( so does the GR-55 IMHO)

On GR-55,  MUST remember to use the COSM GR-300 (a.k.a "ANALOG -GR") for lowest latency. There is a separate PCM  GR-300, but that has longer Latency, particularly on the low strings - so most skip that one.

See GR-55 OM Page 35 and choose "ANALOG-GR" as the Modeling Tone type. This = the COSM GR-300 Tone, with low latency. 


VG-99 GR-300 COSM Demo

aliensporebomb

One of the initial reasons for me getting the VG-99 in the first place was the two virtual GR-300s.  I only realized that the virtual GR-300 was in the box after Wayne's great article in Premier Guitar a couple of years ago.  I had to have it then!

I had the 1982 G-202 guitar and GR-100 module (sadly sold in 1988) and always wanted a 300 and now I have two of them.

It's seriously great fun if you love that sound and with two you can get seriously layered.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

arkieboy

For the record, I think Wayne is using an early G-series guitar with his CD24->13 pin convertor box.  He talks about both 'filter and resonance knobs on the guitar'.  And no, ASB - I can't find anything on Wayne's site anymore either!!!!


(I have to say I miss the controls from my old G707s.  The LFO switches by the bridge pickup were really useful.  To be fair I can set my FCB up to put all of that under my feet but those extra controllers would be nice)


I was dead excited about the GR300 emulation too, but strangely I find I use the COSM Wave setting for pretty much everything.  Two channels of wave through the VG99 effects makes one heck of an analog synthesiser ...


Steve
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

whippinpost91850

Tony, It might be a little too big a footprint for you, but I use a FCB1010 and even with the UNO chip, it's cheap

molul

Hehe, I expected somebody saying "there's a GR300 in GR55's COSM section". Thank you for the useful info, Elantric. If I wasn't moving to a new flat this weekend I'd spend it finding Fripp's and Belew's sounds.

whippinpost91850

Sadly, I miss the LFO switches as well. I still have one that does nothing on the custom 24 pin I converted to 13pin,, just as a reminder :(

aliensporebomb

If you like the GR-300 sound check this link:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4801.msg32551#msg32551

Download the MP3.  Bill Ruppert uses the GR-300 model to NAIL the sound of Eddie Jobson's CS80 from the UK/UK release.  Awesome.  I made a version of this patch and crank the levels to 100 and play a bunch of ominous chords with it.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

molul

I played a bit yesterday with the Analog GR model. Amazing. With this and the bass model, now I can say I'm truly happy with this little toy. Now I wish I knew all about it, as I want to use it in my recording but I'm sure that whatever patch I create and use, I'll find much better ones in a few months.

pmgnut

I've read so much about the original GR-300, Roland even has the emulated sound in it's modern synth units....which makes me think, why doesn't Roland just bring the GR-300 back?? Seems it was a very successfull unit in it's time, and the sound it produced is still highly sought after today.

pmgnut

Classic example of GR-300 mastery, starting at 3:43 into the video

molul

Quote from: pmgnut on July 31, 2013, 03:47:34 AM
I've read so much about the original GR-300, Roland even has the emulated sound in it's modern synth units....which makes me think, why doesn't Roland just bring the GR-300 back?? Seems it was a very successfull unit in it's time, and the sound it produced is still highly sought after today.
What they've done in the GR55 is a logic evolution. You have the same sounds as the GR300 but you can program different patches with different settings. I'm very impressed about the modeled GR300 in GR55. It might not be exactly the same, but it's still great.

aliensporebomb

In addition to saving patch presets:

The other thought is that with the VG-99 you can have TWO emulated GR-300 units in stereo which back in the day would require a 24-bit guitar, a very rare US-2 unit selector, multiple 24-pin cables, and two GR-300 units. 

Even back in the day this would be rather expensive. 

This is perfectly emulated in the VG-99 and if you have an FC-300 you can set it up so that the most commonly used items you would want to control via footswitch can be controlled via foot, the CTL1 and CTL2 switches on the FC-300 plus the four jacks on the back of the FC lets you connect additional expression pedals or footswitches so you can really have that emulation dialed in hardware wise.

Then with the 99 you can also have all of that dual GR happiness happening with all of the modern effects built into the 99 as well.
Without carrying a small truck of equipment around.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

aliensporebomb

Another piece that is unthinkable without a GR-300 with two guitarists both playing the 300:


Another take:


My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

molul

What a fantastic song (and album). I always thought those sounds were made by keyboards (as in many other KC songs like "Dinosaur", "Matte kudasai"...). Imagine my face when I saw the Crimsons' "Live in Japan". I knew KC 5 years ago, and fell in love with many of their albums, but never thought "let's see how they were live". And I had heard about guitar synths in 2006 but I never knew what they really were about. Watching that concert was mindblowing. I NEEDED a guitar synth.

Elantric

#24
Quote.which makes me think, why doesn't Roland just bring the GR-300 back??

Because 40% of the crucial IC chips and other components that were used to produce the 1980-1984 Roland GR-300 are long obsolete and discontinued. It was replaced in 1985 by the GR-700 (the first Roland Hardware that performed Guitar to MIDI  - GR-700 was highly based upon a Roland JX-3P Synth) Today its often a case that a cherished piece of older gear must be retired when it breaks due to the scarcity of replacement parts. Many repairmen often track down old gear on ebay simply to use as a source for parts.   

More details here:

http://www.joness.com/gr300/GR-300.htm