GR-55 - Why I returned my GR55 and Went Retro

Started by Davis, December 04, 2012, 11:25:20 PM

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Kevin M

Hyper-compression is a big culprit. You lose dynamics big time. Like everything else this 'technique' has been copied ad nauseam.

gumtown

Quote from: kmaus10 on September 28, 2013, 11:36:01 AM
Hyper-compression is a big culprit. You lose dynamics big time. Like everything else this 'technique' has been copied ad nauseam.
Classic example of that was getting the last FooFighters album "wasting light', and finding it initially un-listenable until i became familiar with the songs, all the dynamics squashed out.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Toby Krebs

However long ago it was I can't remember but Springsteens big record back in the day had the loudest snare drum sound I had ever heard and was mixed stupid hot. Guess what? The record companies all started doing final mixes and mastering using this technique and a lot of crappy sounding out of balance records were made that way. I still think that the snare drum on modern records is most of the time too "blanking" loud for no good reason other than back then it became the "standard" snare thing. Go back and listen to "Born In The USA" and you will hear what I mean. Ridiculous. A lot of this audio BS started a long time ago when the record company weenies wanted to just make the same crap over and over again instead of really doing the job they were supposed to do. Find and develop and record new artists with something to offer.

teejay

Quote from: Toby Krebs on September 30, 2013, 08:52:38 AM
A lot of this audio BS started a long time ago when the record company weenies wanted to just make the same crap over and over again instead of really doing the job they were supposed to do. Find and develop and record new artists with something to offer.
Big, big, BIG +1 to that!!!!!!
Custom KGB headless, internal GK2a and sustainiac stealth plus. GR55 straight into PA.   Guitar out (COSM) feeding digitech VL4 vocal harmoniser.

aliensporebomb

I bought that Rush "Vapor Trails Remixed" and it's amazing. 

David Bottrill is a mixing genius: the record before sounded like someone recorded an analog cassette too "hot", upped the bass and mids and reduced the highs and pressed that to CD.

On the remix there's stuff you could never hear before: actual guitar solos and melody parts, shimmering clear acoustic six and twelve string guitar and mandola parts, electric twelve string, intricately picked parts on the guitar, majorly audible backing vocal parts, defined percussive intricacy and actual
defined notes on the bass that was obliterated by the compression and utterly ludicrous upper midrange emphasized so much that no bass note had any definition.   The vocals actually have warmth and the record has a "soundstage" instead of a claustrophobic wall of sound. 

It's still a pretty intense rock record but you can listen to it now, not recoil in horror over the bad mastering job.  Kudos to Mr. Bottrill.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Toby Krebs

The band I record with "Follys Pool" is about to start mixing and mastering the record we just finished all the tracking on. It's called "Warm Valley Nights".It took a year to complete. I hope they don't let someone ruin it by doing any of this stupid hyper compressed BS to it during the mastering process. I am trying to not get involved in this part of it as I am not a composer of any of the tunes but I am going to keep an eye out and pop in to the studio while they are going through the process.I told the song writers when asked what my thoughts were to not let anyone else put their "stink" on their record and that it belonged to them. We shall see how it goes.

carsonics

The truth is for me that I've always thought Roland/Boss products were excellent and though I use a lot of the good stuff like everyone else, I'm generally satisfied with Roland/Boss and have owned their synths, effects, pedals, audio interfaces, controllers, etc. and now I have just bought the GR-55.  Truthfully I wouldn't have bought it without viewing all the youtube demos and doing my research.  Sometimes it takes years to explore a piece of equipment and often you do not get the full dimensions of a good piece of gear until you are challenged or pushed by necessity.  Case in point, it has taken me years to explore my Waldorf synths, my Yamaha modules, production software, etc.  Only recently I had to dig into my Boss GT-8 MFX for more complex performance setups and to my surprise it does everything I needed to do and more and that's my general experience with Roland.  Are the factory patches on their synths and the GR-55 that exciting?  No, but they're not on other products either.  It depends on what you do with the tools.  But on the other hand I moved to German Waldorf synths because their more interesting and less for the commercial markets than big companies like Roland and Yamaha who have had to make the cheap stuff in order to survive.   I don't mean cheap cheap, I mean instruments for the consumer market with all the whistles and bells and generic factory patches.  Anyway, I digress - I look forward to adding my two cents on the GR-55.  Here's a list of RolandBoss stuff I've had over the years and ALL GOOD STUFF:

SDE 1000 Delay
SRV 2000 Reverb
JX8P Synth
SH101 Synth
D-10 Synth
Roland Cube 80X Guitar Amp
Edirol UA 700 Audio Interface
Edirol  Controller
Boss GT-8 Guitar MFX
Boss GT-6B Bass MFX
Boss pedals
707 Drum Machine
and now the GR-55!


 














Deacon Blue

I understand the compromises in using the GR-55 thru a guitar amp or a adequate PA system.  Besides being a musician, I am an entertainer. This allows some latitude (professional license) regarding the type of music that you're playing. I love the GR-55 for its "all in one box" mode. I'm confused sometimes by guitarists who have no less than 10 stompboxes and yet their guitar sound stays the same all night..I understand you have your favorite distorted tone, but to run over everything you play with it is boring...I love the fact I can add flute parts to Jethro Tull songs along with Led Zepellin , Marshall Tucker etc.I love being the organist backup to a hot guitarist playing SRV. Adding a slow synth mix of a Rickenbacker 12 string to a normal/modeled guitar is awesome. I'm not a techie, but have enough experience to make my playing career simpler and more exciting, I think. I'll never go back to a straight guitar setup again. Why would I?
"When your project isn't working, look for the part that you didn't think was important"
www.Bandmix.com/katylyst

mapperboy

A little more love for the GR-55 flying out from here:
I got the GR-55 because I kinda went full tilt away from straight acoustic with mike and acoustic with fishman (Taylor 314), but I was also wanting to pickup some bass experience.
I chose the GR-55 because of it's dual role modes (guitar and bass) and of course to dive into the whole world of PCM,COSM and effects thru the 13pin interface.
Now last night with my improv group I picked up my bass (a Godin A5 Ultra SA fretless) and forgot to switch modes.
I had a 'Martin Acoustic' patch dialed in.  Hmm guess what, it responded to all the bass strings in Guitar mode (including my low B 5th) and I didn't even bother to tweak the GK settings.  Later I did tune up for better matching the A5's RMC bass piezos.
The original guitar Martin patch had both a #177 (Steel-st.Gt) Model and the Normal PU turned on.  I eventually turned off the Model and just now just use Normal PU.
This setting along with a little bit of reverb and chorus gives a beautiful nice warm resonant fretless sound without reaching down, button-dialing to change modes, switching off and one again.
Love the versatility in the GR-55!
"No such thing as spare time.
No such thing as free time.
No such thing as down time.
All you got is life time. Go!"
- Henry Rollins

Elantric

Great "tip & trick!"

thanks for sharing1

Now_And_Then

Quote from: aliensporebomb on September 28, 2013, 08:25:44 AMI actually got a lot more interest at the new age spirituality shows and psychic fairs playing the ambient stuff when I was playing [the guitar with the glitter.] My more tuned into new age spirituality friend Amy tells me it's because of the sparkles.

That's "new age spirituality" in a nutshell.


Opustaylor

I purchased a GR55 and a Roland GC-1 about a year ago. After a few weeks, I became totally disenchanted and put both of them away to gather dust. About 3-4 months ago, I started reading a few posts on this forum. Then, I started "devouring" posts on this forum and quickly became convinced that I was "missing" something...if many people here were raving about the GR55, then there might be something to it.

Soon, I realized that I had done what many first time GR55 owner's do....I only listened to the factory patches! I started doing my own and downloading some from this forum....and one night, I took it to a gig with a band that a play with....and presto!!!....it sounded so great!!! Couldn't believe how great it sounded.

I also did a lot of research on amps....and how to connect to an amp. I finally decided on a Fishman Mini-Loudbox and eventually a Fishman Performer. Both are great acoustic amps...but the key I found (from this forum) is to input through the auxillary or MP3 input. That completed the puzzle and created a truly amazing sound!

So, I'm not saying that the GR55 is for everyone...but for me, it's been a phenomenal tool to use with my music.

ColonelForbin

This thread is very helpful! My GC-1 just arrived yesterday, and I've had the GR-55 about a week. I bought them both from Zzounds, so I have 45 days for the GC and around 35 left on the GR-55 to see if I want to keep them. I've read all your responses, and...

I feel like I need to spend some more time adjusting the internal GR-55 system settings as pertains to the GK pickups. I got mixed up, realized it's the Boss GP-10 which has an input setting for the GC-1. With the GR-55, you still have to do the manual measurements and set up that info properly.

I also have the external pickup which came with the GR-55 temporarily mounted on my JTV59; neither instrument is tracking very well, and I did spend some time with the external on my JTV, measured the scale length, and the distance from the piezo saddles to the center of the GK, etc. It does just *ok*, and I won't even try to blame that on the GR-55, until I know for certain I have this thing all programmed and setup properly.

Basically, what I am experiencing is insanely obvious latency, from when I play a note on the guitar, to the sound of the PCM signal vs the onboard pickups and/or the guitar models.

The PCM latency is so bad, I can't imagine being able to play properly and get the sound to mesh with other instruments. Again, for now, I will assume (hope) this is because I am not doing something properly. I figured with the GC-1 it would be far better than my attempts to mount a GK on a guitar in the external method, and it was not.

If anyone wants to point me toward a thread which might discuss this basic initial "setup" more in depth, I'd much appreciate it and thanks!

Toby Krebs

The GC-1 is just a strat with an internal GK pickup in it.It has to be calibrated and set up properly like any other guitar with an external GK.

supernicd

#89
Colonel Forbin I know why you've come here
And I'll help you with your quest to gain the knowledge that you lack
I call upon my faithful friend the mockingbird
To fly and seize the helping book and bring it to your shack
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/phish/colonelforbinsascent.html


Sorry, couldn't resist and seemed appropriate. :)  Definitely get the GK-3 installed correctly, the settings right in the GR-55.  Read the docs in the downloads section here.  Once dialed in correctly, yes, PCMs have a very small amount of latency and some are better than others, but nothing I would describe as insane or unplayable due to latency.  There are a few PCMs that tend to be more glitchy than others but that mostly manifests as mis-triggered notes rather than latency.  And even those can be tamed somewhat with different GK-3 sets.  Keep reading and tweaking your setup.  It's a good processor once dialed in.  Having the strings as close as possible to the top of the GK-3 pickup is important too (1mm I think).  If you're sure you're set up right and you're still getting crazy latency, I guess it's possible you have a defective unit.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

#90
Read about GR-55 Latency here:

GR-55 patches with lowest latency
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12678.0

QuoteOverall, I like it. But I am not sure what is causing such latency. By that, I mean, I hit a string or note on the GK equipped instrument, and there is a very noticeable lag time before the PCM sound is produced. It's very obvious with some PCM stuff, less so with others. I also know it comes down to picking technique, etc.

This its true for all GR-55 users:



The GR-55 Tone engine latency ( lowest to highest ) will always be:

1 ) COSM "MODELING TONE" Patch  = Lowest latency ( and should be similar latency as the Guitar modeling tones on a Tyler JTV Variax)

2) Guitar to PCM TONE patch = higher latency, as the internal DSP must correlate your picking dynamics to a suitable dynamic response curve and determine the correct pitch to trigger the internal PCM Audio Samples. 

3) Guitar to External MIDI Module patch = highest latency

Many GR-55 patches employ a combination of COSM and PCM, which helps mask the higher latency response of the Guitar to PCM triggering. 

and explains the popularity of VG-8, VG-88, VG-99 and GP-10 among many folks, as those devices use 100% low latency COSM processing for all their internal sounds.


Refer to the GR-55 Factory Patch List:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2953.0;attach=2845




To test the Lowest latency COSM MODELING TONE  GR-55 Factory Patches, press the appropriate LEAD, RHYTHM preset button, then spin the data wheel to select these patches which do not use PCM:

LEAD 01-3  GR-300 Ctl:+1Oct
LEAD 05-3  WAVE SYNTH SOLO
LEAD 09-2  Pdl Bend Guitar
LEAD 09-3  POLY DISTOTION
LEAD 17-2  Comfortable Solo

RHYTHM 05-2  ST + TWEED
RHYTHM 05-3  LP + STACK
RHYTHM 06-2  Jazz Guitar
RHYTHM 11-1 Electric 12str
RHYTHM 11-2 AC->12stAC(CTL)
RHYTHM 11-3 Nylon String Gtr
RHYTHM 12-1 Pedal Wah
RHYTHM 12-2 Stolling Rones ( note the Low E string is intentionally muted)
RHYTHM 12-3 Flat Tuned Drive


supernicd

Nice clear, concise explanation Elantric!

I should have probably asked what you are considering insanely obvious latency, Col. Forbin.  I have not actually measured the latency with PCM tones but based on experience I'd guess them in the single milliseconds at best up to maybe in the 20-30 ms range at worst for a few of the tones.  If that much latency bothers you, you might not like the GR-55.  If you're getting more latency than that, something's most likely wrong with your set up. PCM latency should not be measurable in seconds or hundreds of milliseconds.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

ColonelForbin

Thanks folks! We just got the electric gear all set up again in our drummers basement for the winter (had cleared it out when they had the house on the market, but they took it back off for winter, so we've got from now till March 2015 to have everything wired up and ready to go)

I didn't really have the same sense of a latency issue at full volume, jamming with the guys (just three piece, our bassist couldn't make it) so I was able to do my parallel JTV-HD500-DT25 + JTV-GK3-GR-55 rig. I must say, the GR-55 presets sound really cool going stereo direct to the mixer, out to the two speakers we use for monitors. I actually just set them upright and made them the main mix instead of monitor, just to see how it would all respond. I could definitely recommend using the Line6 L2 speakers for use as a full-range amplification option for this type of rig; it was really huge sounding. I was able to dial in my guitar tones with the HD500-DT25, and have the GR55 going direct, not through the DT25 made for a cool sound. The Invisible Keyboardist!

Anyway, thanks for the responses ya'all; will most likely be able to give it another go this Friday, and since it's all set up we can spend more time dialing in sound, listening to how the GR-55 sits timing wise against the kick drum. I got some cool tones using a synthy bass patch on the GR-55 and the plexi model on my HD500.

All that low end would be sure to make our bassist cringe; but it makes for fun jamming when he isn't there!

ColonelForbin

Quote from: Toby Krebs on October 24, 2014, 08:55:55 AM
The GC-1 is just a strat with an internal GK pickup in it.It has to be calibrated and set up properly like any other guitar with an external GK.

Yup; I got myself mixed up when I was reading both the GR-55 and GP-10 manuals. On the Boss GP-10, they have that setting to choose the GC-1 as the GK type, which then means you don't have to measure the distance from the center of the GK pickup to each bridge saddle. It also doesn't requre the scale length measurement either.

I was all confused, trying to figure out why I couldn't find that on the GR-55! Once I did get the JTV with the external GK dialed in, the preset patches seemd tight at a louder "band" volume in our rehearsal space. Though I didn't pay much attention to which patches were all synth, or a mix of PCM and synth.

It's a trade off, and certainly a fun sound! I will sit down and listen more carefully to the actual modeled and synth tones vs the PCM tones, and then try playing those in time with the kick drum. In general, it was certainly playable and didn't sound like anything was off the mark by too much when I jammed on Friday with the band; makes a big difference to be cranked up and not listening to the tones in isolation

ColonelForbin

#94
Quote from: SuperNiCd on October 24, 2014, 02:07:30 PM
Colonel Forbin I know why you've come here
And I'll help you with your quest to gain the knowledge that you lack
I call upon my faithful friend the mockingbird
To fly and seize the helping book and bring it to your shack
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/phish/colonelforbinsascent.html

Nice!! Well done, sir :) Couch Tour for the Halloween shows coming up this week!! I watched the last couple shows that they webcast, good stuff thus far this tour. Any speculation on what they play for the Halloween show? Last year was cool, they "covered" their new album before they actually went to studio to record it, made for a very unique variation of their traditional Halloween 'cover album' set.

The Fuego tour has been pretty solid this year! I went to the 3 Chicago shows this summer, wishing I was able to catch New Years in Miami though..

I think you are right with me needing to tweak the GK settings, in particular the settings for the GC1. I had a major fun time rocking that thing with the band at practice / jams this Friday! Was just three piece (gtr/gtr/drums) so being able to put some crazy low end synth and whatnot direct through the full range speakers, while running my Line6 HD500-DT25 as the guitar tones separate was really cool - way better experience than what I had at home alone. Probably the combination of the full volume and the other guitar + drums, you really don't hear it being off timing.

I did mult-track it, will do another jam this Friday, and I'll pay closer attention when I listen to playback to see how the GR-55 sits in time with the HD500-DT25 and the kick drum. Overall, major WOW factor! Just takes some time to get dialed in and patience to make fine tune adjustments.

Deacon Blue

Having used the GR- 55 over the past 2 years, the latency issue hasn't been an issue. Using just the PCMs I play just slightly ahead of the beat, plain and simple. It's a technique I've developed and if you're a good listener as well as a player you can nail it. Playing with a good drummer really helps too.
     As it has been discussed in the past, sensitivity with your pick/fingers is what makes it work. You absolutely cannot be sloppy with your strings. I know I'm preaching to the choir with most of you who have used the unit more often than not..nuff said. Happy Halloween!!
"When your project isn't working, look for the part that you didn't think was important"
www.Bandmix.com/katylyst

JKpicker

My comments might offend some.  However, I have seen many hot guitar players who did not impress me.  I am sort of one myself.  But, my favorite situation, is our current band doing a variety of "tributes".  We do it sort of tongue in cheek. 
So when I kick on the sax, during the 2nd solo of Old Time Rock N Roll,  or replicate the exact tone of Harrison's guitar on I Feel Fine,  or the tone of Sultans of Swing....I get  a nice reaction, smiles from the band, and accolades from the crowd.  But not because I can play the songs, they know that, they have a real extra appreciation for the fact that I worked (they have no idea how long) to achieve those sounds.
I have spent countless hours on each of my sounds.  I have 61 of them because we play great old songs, and I think each is worth the attention.  Besides, it's my hobby.  But if my goal was simply to show my playing skills and forget about the fun, and entertainment side of gigging, my approach wouldn't make sense.

Fusion

It's ll about having fun and enjoying playing.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

aliensporebomb

Yep!  Exactly - playing what fits the situation makes it more for you and the audience.

I've literally worked for years on my guitar sounds - because I'm chasing a sound in my head or that's from a record that I've not yet achieved or find a way to get a little closer.

If I was just playing hard rock, well, heck, gimme a strat or a les paul and a fender twin or marshall or mesa and crank it.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Fusion

I first got into using a guitar synth on the GR-33 which I was using along with my heavy Marshall uber gain structures. I had the synth in stereo twins and the Marshall in the middle. Heavy band ranging through various metal themes, like the whole Tool thing which was a phase previously seemed everyone was into.
Anyway I used the synth to create these monstrous choir voices under my heavy chord structures, storm like sounds, wind, even this one I had called "hell fall" which was a downward moving voice on the 33. Did not sound like anything anyone had ever heard. Imagine sort of a orchestrated Diary of Madman all on one guitar.
The massive choir thing was so spooky some of the hangers on chicks in the rehearsal room had to go in the hall, scared the bejesus out of them.
When I hit that synth believe me heads turned, no one had ever heard such a massive heavy thing coming at them live. So there is more to using a synth with the guitar than mimic of horns and piano stuff. You can get some extremely heavy stuff going on that no one has ever attempted. Wish I could have carried that on somewhere but age is a freight train that will not be stopped.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."