VG-8EX . vs . VG-8 + VG8S-1 ?

Started by MotorBongo, April 22, 2014, 10:14:09 AM

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MotorBongo

Hello,

After some GR-30 fun with a GK-2A I guess I can't resist also trying the VG-type of machines.

I'm wondering, what are the differences between either

the combination of the  VG-8 + VG8S-1

versus

the VG-8EX ?

I understood the VG-8EX has the additional 'E-bank'of patches, but could these also be programmed on the VG-8 + VG8S-1 ?  (at the expense of other patches)

If so, are the parameters of these E-bank patches available, in order to construct those patches for the VG-8 + VG8S-1 ?

Thanks !


Elantric

#1
QuoteThe new EX system is different from the old VG-8 S-1 only in that:

The unit comes "pre-expanded" ie, the S-1 expansion additions (see below) are preinstalled.
There are 32 new patches in a preset "E" bank, but you can also download these in the patches section of this site.
There are a few new labels on the unit to demonstrate foot pedal alternate commands, this only a cosmetic change.

Quote from: chrish on March 05, 2020, 12:03:53 PM
yes, that "S1 on the far right" indicates that the update was done, but I thought you said that for some reason it does not have the update.




All 1995 VG-8's have that same "S1" silkscreen on the far right near the Bank ^ footswitch  - in this context the "S1" refers to alternate access to the GK S1 Switch
the "S1" on the far right does NOT mean its been Expanded with the S1 update


I understand reading has fallen out of fashion , but lots of confusion can be eliminated by  READING

Original VG-8 Owners Manual
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/VG-8_OM.pdf




1995 Roland VG-8


1996 Roland VG-8 S1 Update card



1995 Roland VG-8 after being Expanded using the S1 Update card 



1998 Roland VG-8EX

Web Archive from 2005 era log dead www.VG-8.com Upgrade page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050209012230/http://vg-8.com/upgrade

Upgrading your V-Guitar System


Upgrading Your VG-8

To figure out which version of the VG-8 you have, check what is the highest patch number you can get to. If you can get to preset b84, then you have a VG-8, if you can get to d84, then you have a VG-8 S1, and if you can get to E84, then you have a VG-8EX.

Upgrading a VG-8 or VG-8 S1 to VG-8EX

The new EX system is different from the old VG-8 S-1 only in that:

The unit comes "pre-expanded" ie, the S-1 expansion additions (see below) are preinstalled.
There are 32 new patches in a preset "E" bank, but you can also download these in the patches section of this site.
There are a few new labels on the unit to demonstrate foot pedal alternate commands, this only a cosmetic change.
The good news is that users of the VG-8 S1 can upgrade via midi. If you have a PC running Windows, the best way to upgrade is using this program by Tim Noonan.

Otherwise...

These MIDI files, with instructions in Word format will guide you through the process. For Cakewalk userst you need to use the .wrk file available here. Attention to Cakewalk users, the previous file contains an error in patch D64 (that all VG-8 S-1 or EX's have) that Nick Melnick has fixed for us. His version is available here. For those of you without MS Word, here are text instructions. Larry Myers has created a page about upgrading the VG-8 from DOS.

The VG-8 S-1 System Expansion Kit

If you already shelled out the dough for the original VG-8 investment, this expansion is very much worth it. Almost every criticism I had of the originally VG-8 is addressed with this add on.

If you have the S-1, use it any number of times using this trick: Just hold down SYSTEM and WRITE while turning on the VG-8 with the S-1 inserted. Choose OK and the card will upgrade your machine regardless of the number of previous installations.

Since Roland is now selling the VG-8 EX, these S-1 updates are pretty hard to find. So, if yo can't upgrade your VG-8 using the software above, I can loan out my own personal expansion kit to you. If you can get you or your VG-8 to California, I will update your VG-8 for free. If you would rather have me send you the update, you must first send me a $500 deposit which I will return when the S-1 is returned to me. Email me for more details. Some people have had luck with sending their unit to their local Roland address and asking them to upgrade the unit for free.

Another option you have is to join the mailing list and post a request to the list if their are any S-1 owners in your area that would be willing to expand your VG-8 for you. Here are some people who are already volunteering:

MotorBongo

Thanks for this info!

Sounds like the combination of 'VG-8 + S1'  is as good as the 'EX', good to hear that.

(I'll study some more on the various details)


Best regards

Elantric


MotorBongo

Thanks for those links & info!

Best regards

MotorBongo

#5
Just re-read the info above in more detail.

So if I understand it correctly you can get a VG-8 as complete (including the E-bank etc)  as a VG-8EX in two steps:
(1) first expand it by means of the VG8S-1 (--> 'expanded') and then (2) by the Tim Noonan update by MIDI (resulting in the Vg-*EX)

Sounds good!


Thing is, I can buy a VG-8 which has been given step (1) by means of the VG8S-1, but the VG8S-1 is not included in the sale.
Could there be any realistic circumstances that I 're-need' the VG8S-1 ? 

Say after installing a fresh internal battery for instance. Or after a self-test ?

I saw in the Service Notes that it's also needed for this update: 

VG-8EX System Update v1.01

Tools required
* MIDI Sequencer (SMF compatible)
* MIDI cable
* VG-8EX Ver Up Disk
* VG8S-1

** Important!!**
   To perform System Version Up, VG8S-1 is necessary as a key.
   Any VG8S-1 even a used one can be used for this purpose.



Thanks / regards!

Elantric

#6
You need to check and report back what your current VG-8 Firmware version is before further instructions


IDENTIFYING SYSTEM REVISION NUMBER
While holding down both [PLAY] and [SYSTEM]
buttons, turn power on. The LCD will show the system
revision number.

----------------------
Roland VG-8EX
system version *.**
----------------------



MotorBongo

Quote from: Elantric on April 23, 2014, 10:57:33 AM
You need to check and report back what your current VG-8 Firmware version is before further instructions


IDENTIFYING SYSTEM REVISION NUMBER
While holding down both [PLAY] and [SYSTEM]
buttons, turn power on. The LCD will show the system
revision number.

----------------------
Roland VG-8EX
system version *.**
----------------------



Thanks, I'll ask the seller if he can tell me.

Regards

Elantric

#8
Suggest read VG-8 F.A.Q. for more details on the differences between 1995 VG-8  and 1998 VG-8EX

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11090.msg95466#msg95466


I have owned both 1st release 1995 VG-8 (with S1 update)   - and now a 1998 VG-8EX  - and IMHO its worth skipping all VG-8's and instead seek a genuine VG-8EX, as the VG-8EX has higher audio clarity, Fidelity and detail  - Reviewing the service manuals to both VG-8 and VG-8EX there are minor circuit updates on the VG-8EX and higher audio performance !

and read



VG-8 - Resetting the S-1 card for multiple upgrades - How do I do it?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17497.0

dblacha

Quote from: Elantric on December 11, 2014, 10:12:42 AM
... Reviewing the service manuals to both VG-8 and VG-8EX there are minor circuit updates on the VG-8EX and higher audio performance !
...

Elantric Hi, I'm curious of differences between VG-8 and VG-8EX, maybe it's time to get a companion for my 8EX 8, but I would like compare the service manuals.
I spent a few hours with google, but I can not find this document for the 8.
Would you like to share if you have the link for VG-8 service manual / notes or the file itself?
I would be very graceful.

Kind Regards,
Dominik.
VG8 / VG88 / VG99 / WP20G / GP10 / SY1000 / GKP4 / US20 / Sustainiac / EBow

Headless68

Same money to buy but the VG8 ex sounds 'better' (audio clarity) & has more on board memory patches
Hold out for an 'ex'
You won't be disappointed
:-)

dblacha

Quote from: Headless68 on December 20, 2016, 04:08:26 PM
Same money to buy but the VG8 ex sounds 'better' (audio clarity) & has more on board memory patches
Hold out for an 'ex'
You won't be disappointed
:-)

I have VG-8 with S1 expansion, so I have the E bank already, but I'm interested what is hardware differences, so I'm looking for the service manual for my VG-8 for compare with the VG-8EX manual.
VG8 / VG88 / VG99 / WP20G / GP10 / SY1000 / GKP4 / US20 / Sustainiac / EBow

Elantric

#12
Not much more to add than my prior post

Suggest read VG-8 F.A.Q. for more details on the differences between 1995 VG-8  and 1998 VG-8EX

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11090.msg95466#msg95466


I have owned both 1st release 1995 VG-8 (with S1 update)   - and now a 1998 VG-8EX  - and IMHO its worth skipping all VG-8's and instead seek a genuine VG-8EX, as the VG-8EX has higher audio clarity, Fidelity and detail  - Reviewing the service manuals to both VG-8 and VG-8EX there are minor circuit updates on the VG-8EX and higher audio performance !

and read





dblacha

I was asking only for the non-ex VG-8 service manual...
VG8 / VG88 / VG99 / WP20G / GP10 / SY1000 / GKP4 / US20 / Sustainiac / EBow

dblacha

Quote from: Elantric on December 20, 2016, 05:57:10 PM
...Reviewing the service manuals to both VG-8 and VG-8EX there are minor circuit updates on the VG-8EX and higher audio performance !

Elantric, do you have this VG-8 service manual? Can you share it please?
Best XMass wishes :-)
VG8 / VG88 / VG99 / WP20G / GP10 / SY1000 / GKP4 / US20 / Sustainiac / EBow

Elantric

#15
Currently only have access the VG-8 EX service manual - already posted.


My VG-8 Service Manual is hardcopy only and in storage   

I currently don't have a VG-8 to compare in real time side by side, but Ive played and owned both and currently have a very clean studio only 1998 Roland VG-8EX     

untrained ears won't be able to tell the difference, but I sure can  - the VG-8EX has lower hiss. The older VG-8 - even after the "S1" upgrade, still had higher background noise and with my example, a few random crackles here and there on note decay - even with a new GK-13 cable -  I think its endemic to the 1995 era COSM algorithms - my Boss GT-5 had similar occasional crackles.

odd analogy, but moving from VG-8 to VG-8EX hardware, is a bit like comparing the sound of GT5 vs GT-6  - same COSM models , but subtle improvement in clarity, as each subsequent COSM product has exhibited to my ears.

So I relegate the 1995-1997 original Roland VG-8 and VG-8 with "S1" upgrades as a separate hardware product vs the "slightly superior" noise floor  and more clarity of the 1998 Roland VG-8EX. Roland even mentioned this fact in the original Roland VG-8 EX press release. But I know Aure on the old www.VG-8.com mail list was promoting there is no difference between a $2500 1995 VG-8 , updated with the 1997 "S1" upgrade  vs a $1900 1998 VG-8EX. Bulk of that IMHO was to prevent anarchy from early adopters who paid high price in time and money, and to maintain higher resale value

Headless68

I agree - I had an early VG8 with the upgrade & the EX is notably better - I wouldn't say I was 'that' picky either but the EX shines

Tony Raven

FWIW, I have both. While my upgraded VG-8 is just fine in performance -- heck, most of the pub-goers could care, right? -- the EX really does sound just that bit better AND has the extended memory + patches.

That is to say, I wouldn't sneer at a pristine CHEAP bare-bones VG-8, which remains a classic piece of kit, but as the sellers are so often clueless an EX can regularly be had for about the same price-point.


sixeight

How can you tell the EX version apart from the normal VG8 by looking at a picture? Is it the "MOD", "DELAY", "REVERB" text above the first three switches?

Elantric

#19
Quoteis it the "MOD", "DELAY", "REVERB" text above the first three switches?

Correct


Tony Raven

As this thread is a great summary/FAQ, & new members are pointed here, there is one point that nags at me.
QuoteThe new EX system is different from the old VG-8 S-1 only in that:

  • The unit comes "pre-expanded" ie, the S-1 expansion additions (see below) are preinstalled.
  • There are 32 new patches in a preset "E" bank, but you can also download these in the patches section of this site.
  • There are a few new labels on the unit to demonstrate foot pedal alternate commands, this only a cosmetic change.
I don't have my manuals at hand, but doesn't the EX have larger physical memory?


Headless68

Well I thought I'd update findings :-)
So I had an ex and an expanded VG8 in the same place at the same time this week
My comments on this thread were based on memory & some years between playing them
Side by side they are a lot closer than thought, splitting hairs :-)

Piing

Quote from: Elantric on December 27, 2016, 03:08:28 AM
Correct



Isn't it possible to get these deals today?

The cheapest VG8-EX (with the MOD/DELAY/REVERB labels) I can find now on ebay is $325

That is quite expensive, considering that you can get a GP-10 or a VG-88 for less than $300

I sold mine before moving from Spain to Thailand, and now I miss it




chrish

Quote from: Headless68 on July 23, 2019, 06:41:30 AM
Well I thought I'd update findings :-)
So I had an ex and an expanded VG8 in the same place at the same time this week
My comments on this thread were based on memory & some years between playing them
Side by side they are a lot closer than thought, splitting hairs :-)
there is also a VG8ex for $499 on reverb.

Unfortunately the ex was hyped up as sounding better than the VG8s1 so the prices went up. But if you read headless's side by side comparison, he says not a big difference in sound. Aure said the same thing back when the ex came out.

And we know sound quality is subjective anyway. I think the VIO guitar model in the VG8s1 sounds better than the one in the SY1000.

How is that possible since the SY1000 is 25 years newer with 32 bit processing? Maybe the lower fidelity of the VG8s1 influences that particular sound.

Others may not agree. But if you really want the ex, just keep looking for awhile.





Piing

If there is no noticeable difference in quality, would a VG-8 with the "EXPANDED VG8S-1" label have all the available upgrades already in?

There is one for $147 from Australia (reverb and ebay), but I have talked with the seller and he says that he could not test it because he doesn't have a GK-3 pickup. He sells it as it is. The VG-8 is a tough Russian tank, but I don't know if it is worth to take that risk.



There is another for auction, starting at $50 (without expansion, with M512E card) but only ships to the US.