GR-55 - Why I returned my GR55 and Went Retro

Started by Davis, December 04, 2012, 11:25:20 PM

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Elantric

Speaking as a guitar player performing with a band with a Bass player -  I would cut all frequencies below 83 hertz regardless of the situation (home, or Big Stage). Use the Lo cut switch on your mixer you plug the GR-55 into.

If your GR-55 amplification system lacks the ability to cut low frequencies  - insert an external EQ between GR-55 out and Amp / PA.   

 

Toby Krebs

YES!!! Stay out of the bass players frequency range. Much easier to do with a conventional tube amp pedal rig. I played a bass gig with a very loud geetar playere who although a good player turns the bass on his Line 6 Flextone 100 watt head and 2x12 amp way up and plays loud. It was a fight to the death LOL!

teejay

#52
Although I use a VG99 / GR30 combo rather than a GR55, I totally agree about using full range amplification.
I've just started using my Roland VGA7 live again ( through the line ins, it has 2x12s and 2 tweeters, in stereo ), and even the drummer commented on how great the tone was compared to the Line 6 Duoverb I'd been using....

A fantastic, if very heavy amp.....

PS, I LOVE COSM guitar, and haven't used mags in years....

Regards,

TeeJay
Custom KGB headless, internal GK2a and sustainiac stealth plus. GR55 straight into PA.   Guitar out (COSM) feeding digitech VL4 vocal harmoniser.

Elantric

#53
Yes I agree , a stereo full range amp can make a big difference. I finally got my Traynor K4 stereo keyboard amp working great and although the physical separation of  Left and Right  speakers is minimal, the tone I hear is full bodied and free from phase cancellations that occur when running stereo FX summed down to only Mono.
Traynor K4
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=720.0

But will voice that while I prefer Using the K4 as my personal Stereo Stage Monitor for inspiration - I will feed only a Mono Feed to the House Mix

Gassghost

#54
Hi:
I'll chime in here too. I have a thread in another area of the forum regarding my thoughts and feeling on the virtual guitar. I'm on the "other side of the coin" wagon here too. It's rare when I plug a mag pickup guitar straight into an amp these days. It's not a bad thing to do now and then and nothing against it at all either. As commented previously, to each his/her own but... I (personally) find it pretty vanilla. I can attribute at least 6-7 songs I've written inspired by combinations of sounds dialed up in a VG-99, GR-55 or a combination of both. These songs (and plenty of uncompleted snippits soon to be songs) would not exist without these two "tools". I can attribute a cleaner more precise fingering style because of these units. I can also blame them for more articulate picking styles. I can also say that these units have taught me to think about playing a lot differently because if I'm making noises from another instrument I need to consider it's characteristics to make it sound believable. Or again... not, and find myself walking a new path (which is cool). My list could go on.

Please understand my early guitar heros are guys like Robin Trower, Pete Townsend,  Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Stevie Ray and a whole bunch of guys that used a few pedals and straight into an amp and sound awesome. But after I discovered guys like Andy Summers, Pat Metheny, Robert Fripp, Adrian Belew, Allan Holdsworth and a host of others who were getting some really cool "new' sounds out of a 6 string guitar, I found this to be really interesting and exciting new ground for the guitar. I do spend some time programming but can take a preset and in fairly short order tweak it to my liking or to fit a song. I don't get lost in programming or the technology because after all, I play guitar! I don't let the tools take away too much from playing the instrument and interfering with me trying to become a better player. But i think these tool's are invaluable to me in creating the sound garden I can pick some tasty treats from and create a what I think is a very cool musical salad! Not having to haul a bunch of gear around is also a HUGE benefit as well. Need a Strat, got it..., need a Tele... got it!, acoustic yep..., twelver... covered. Marshall yep!... Fender twin of course... gaggle of pedals... let me dig around a bit... Yep here they are!. See!

Not to say I don't play my acoustic now and then and that it doesn't inspire me (because it does) but I like digging through the tool box and using these tools to see what I can build. My guitars are slowly loosing their magnetics and finding a new ways to help me be creative with sound! I'm connected and inspired! No batteries and no problems at gigs!  ;)

My two cents.

Oh for the record... Yes, PA or full range powered speakers a must!!!!!!!!!!! You just won't hear the beauty of these systems without a clean stereo set up. I run the GR-55/VG-99 into a 8 channel Samson rack mount line mixer and then into two Behringer B212D's . The Samson has 3 stereo outputs w/ individual vol control. Monitor one out to my Behringers on the floor in front of me, Main out to the recorder or board (separate volume control so I can tweak stage vol and not piss off the sound guy) and the third can be a headphone mix or second monitor out to a stage mon mix. Awesome control!

Gass
GR-303 updated electronics, Stetsbar, Sustainiac
GR-808 (original) + Stetsbar (FOR SALE)
79 Strat w/ GK-2A
Eastman El Ray 1 and El Ray 3
94 Fender Tele w/GK-2A, Stetsbar
2 Fender GTX 100's
VG-99, GR-55, FC-300
And studio full of stuff

Elantric

#55
I agree - I also own a pair of the earlier Behringer  B212A version 12" powered PA cabs. They actually sound really good with VG-99/GR-55.

QuoteOh for the record... Yes, PA or full range powered speakers a must!!!!!!!!!!! You just won't hear the beauty of these systems without a clean stereo set up. I run the GR-55/VG-99 into a 8 channel Samson rack mount line mixer and then into two Behringer B212D's . The Samson has 3 stereo outputs w/ individual vol control. Monitor one out to my Behringers on the floor in front of me, Main out to the recorder or board (separate volume control so I can tweak stage vol and not piss off the sound guy) and the third can be a headphone mix or second monitor out to a stage mon mix. Awesome control!

Toby Krebs

#56
Without my GR55/Boss GT10 and alto 10 in powered speaker rig I would have made 200 dollars less at a huge wedding I did last Saturday. I am able to do all the keyboard tones and all the classic rock to modern guitar tones needed without hiring additional keyboard and or another guitarist on these corporate/wedding/fundraiser big money gigs. It is my bread and my butter. I also find it just more inspiring even when I am playing a conventional amp/pedal rig to have either the GR55 or GR33 incorporated. It is what sets me apart and makes me a little different from other players I compete with for gigs.

Deus02

This is always an interesting topic, especially for us guys who have been around awhile, and I would also add my two cents here in that given the way effects such as choruses and/or delays function only a stereo set-up allows one to get the most out of these sounds.  I must admit though, that although I don't play much live anymore, now mostly for my own enjoyment,  I have kind of come full circle with my approach to amplification.  I have generally run a stereo power amp through relatively new(Mesa Boogie)separate guitar cabinets(prior to that a Yamaha PA system) and I have been quite surprisingly impressed as to these cabinets range of sound.  Connected to these are an HD500,GR55 and a mixer(along with a JTV Variax), however, I got even a further surprise when a friend of mine who operates a musical instrument store called me to ask if I was interested in trying out a Peavey Valve King 100 head with my set-up just to see how it would compare.  Peavey is bringing out a new model this fall to replace the existing one so the price was quite favorable.  Of course, I have been always running a pure stereo set-up so in order to make a realistic comparison I would need TWO of the heads and given they are tube powered amps, I was extremely skeptical of the sound related to frequency range compared to a PA or power amp.  In the set-up I tried to keep it as simple as possible since each head is a two channel configuration so I just plugged the left and right channel of both GR55 and HD500 directly in to the guitar input of each head, bypassing the mixer and send and return function on the heads and once I fine tuned the tone controls and the volume levels, I started to play and lo and behold, I couldn't believe how good it actually sounded.  Relatively good full range sounds with the advantage of that guitar "tube sound", quite favorable when compared to my previous set-ups.

Of course, at 41 lbs. each for the heads, when it comes to live performances and having to haul around equipment, this isn't the most practical set-up, however, I guess given the current technology, when it comes to the optimum sound for a guitar player,  it seems I somewhat stumbled on to something that gives me the best of both worlds. 


DF400

Quote from: Elantric on September 22, 2013, 02:33:14 PM
Yes I agree , a stereo full range amp can make a big difference. I finally got my Traynor K4 stereo keyboard amp working great and although the physical separation of  Left and Right  speakers is minimal, the tone I hear is full bodied and free from phase cancellations that occur when running stereo FX summed down to only Mono.
Traynor K4
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=720.0

Do share your settings for the K4. I've used mine with varied results - sometimes sounds a bit brash.  Any recommendations?

thanks

Elantric

#59
QuoteDo share your settings for the K4. I've used mine with varied results - sometimes sounds a bit brash.  Any recommendations?

Mine sounds very smooth now  - after replacing both HF voicecoil diaphragms for $40 total cost - cheaper than buying a new Stereo Keyboard amp!


Any K4 Channel sounds good now.

If I use Channel 1 or Channel 2 I run the Tone controls at 12:00 Noon (midway up) - flat response.

Before replacing the HF diaphragms, I had an ever growing "raspi-ness" / harsh" distortion - that finally became unbearable - sounded like a Kazoo (like the old wax paper & comb)

Replace both the HF Voicecoil diaphragms for $40 / pair with new versions from SimplySpeakers, and now the K4 sounds really good and very smooth, and very loud - no distortion.

All details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9493.0
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=720.msg68686#msg68686

Toby Krebs

Stereo of course is better with these devices and I tried it again live about a year ago running a Boss GT10/G55 into a Roland KC300 and out in stereo to two full range PA cabinets. Sounded amazing! But, no one in the audiences or the band could tell the difference. If I was playing original music sure I would do it.For covers mono is fine. When I was a young whippersnapper I ran two Laney AOR30 combos in stereo always. I even toted around three amps from time to time and sometimes 4. I have other stuff to do now like get to the venue on time/have nice clothes and sing my ass off to worry about so stereo unfortunately has been abandoned LOL!

DF400

Quote from: Elantric on September 23, 2013, 04:13:17 PM

Before replacing the HF diaphragms, I had an ever growing "raspi-ness" / harsh" distortion - that finally became unbearable - sounded like a Kazoo (like the old wax paper & comb)
topic=720.msg68686#msg68686[/url]

My exact experience! Thanks for the tip - time to order them up!

Elantric

#62
Its a piece of cake to swapout the old HF voice coils.

I ordered the 4 pack from Simply Speaker, just to keep some spares handy.

All details and instruction video here.
www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9493.0

jgcable

My take on the Full Range rigs live in a live and loud band situation is this.   If you are the only guitarist in the band you can get away with it. If there is another guitarist with a quality tube amp.. you will not be able to hear yourself. For instance...
a while back I was running a Roland VG88 through a 100w Carvin stereo power amp (all tube) into two 4 x 12 Marshall cabs. It was truly a stereo high power rig.  It sounded amazing in every respect. We got another guitar player and he shows up with a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier 1/2 stack. That's 1/2 as many speakers as I was running. When he started playing my sound vanished into thin air. I couldn't even hear my full stack standing directly in front of it. That's when I decided to go back to traditional high gain tube amps for guitar. I currently use a Mesa Boogie Single Rectifier head and a Peavey 5150-II EVH signature head. I want to get back into the guitar synth thing though badly.  I have been looking at the GR55 but it seems that most players don't use them the way I want to use it. I just want backing synth pads, string pads, piano pads during the clean parts of songs. 

Toby Krebs

Todd Rundgren plays old Line 6 Flextone 3 amps and his band has three other guitar players using tube and solid state amps. They sound great. Todd also sounded pretty good with Steve Lukathers Bogner tube amps on the Ringo Starr All Star Band tours. The players have to work together to get complimentary tones for two or more guitars to work whether they are FRFR or tube or whatever. I have done it every different which way and the bottom line is this. If the other guitar player plays too loud and EQs his rig to purposely compete with you rather than compliment  what you are doing I would bet he is one of these guys who turns up when someone else is soloing or singing. If thats the case then that is a difficult problem to deal with.

Deus02

Yep, I would agree, just looks to me like there is a competition in volume here and it just seems to be the case where the guy with the dual rectifier wants to overpower everyone else. If and when, the next time you happened to be playing alongside the same player, even with the new Peavey/Rectifier cab, I doubt you will hear much of a change than what you may or may not have heard before with the Carvin set-up.  If you do, then all you will have is TWO overly loud guitar players and unless you are playing strictly "metal", from my own experience, rest assured this situation is not conducive to securing regular gigs.

gumtown

Make a recording with a recorder mic aimed in line with the MeSA half stack, and playback the recording ans ask everyone how the levels and mix are.
The Mesa half stack played might need to grow some ears in the backs of him knees.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

teejay

Quote from: jgcable on September 25, 2013, 11:24:49 AM
My take on the Full Range rigs live in a live and loud band situation is this.   If you are the only guitarist in the band you can get away with it. If there is another guitarist with a quality tube amp.. you will not be able to hear yourself. For instance...
a while back I was running a Roland VG88 through a 100w Carvin stereo power amp (all tube) into two 4 x 12 Marshall cabs. It was truly a stereo high power rig.  It sounded amazing in every respect. We got another guitar player and he shows up with a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier 1/2 stack. That's 1/2 as many speakers as I was running. When he started playing my sound vanished into thin air. I couldn't even hear my full stack standing directly in front of it. That's when I decided to go back to traditional high gain tube amps for guitar. I currently use a Mesa Boogie Single Rectifier head and a Peavey 5150-II EVH signature head. I want to get back into the guitar synth thing though badly.  I have been looking at the GR55 but it seems that most players don't use them the way I want to use it. I just want backing synth pads, string pads, piano pads during the clean parts of songs.

Nice setup, but I wouldn't call it "full range" with 2 4x12s, you'd still only get a bandwidth limited output.......
Since I've had a VG99, I've been the only guitarist in my bands, but using the VG8 and later the 88 in 2 guitar bands, I never had any problem getting my sound across, firstly with a power amp and 2 x 15+horn PA cabs, then later 2 x Samson DB500A active cabs.
I'm now going into the Aux ins on my VGA7 and Lovin' It !!!!!
Custom KGB headless, internal GK2a and sustainiac stealth plus. GR55 straight into PA.   Guitar out (COSM) feeding digitech VL4 vocal harmoniser.

Toby Krebs

#68
Been subbing for a bass player in a female singer lead band whos guitar player ( the only one) e.q.s his pods bass frequencies boosted in the range of the bass guitar LOL! He has played in metal bands his whole life and will not change this aspect of his "tone". He is a very good and popular player here but what he does e.q. wise makes the band sound like "blank". The female singer(s) are always complaining that they can't hear themselves LOL! The band as a whole is louder than "blank". During a performance outdoors last Wednesday night I could stop playing my bass and it made no difference in the amount of low end in the mix. This guy is a top "instructor" in my town as well. I have one more gig with them and then I am too busy with gigs to help them any more this year. I think musicians who spend time in a recording studio understand these concepts(mixing-e.q.-dynamics etc...) more than the ones who have never had their playing scrutinized by an engineer or producer or songwriter.
To be sure with my keyboard amp and two alto ts110a  FRFR speakers I can play just as loud as anyone else. The thing is do I know when I am too loud? Yes. Experience and training and LISTENING have taught me that. LOUD IS NEVER A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOOD!!!!

Elantric

#69
The other side of the equation in volume wars are "young" FOH Mix Engineers who think Boosting everything between 20- 200Hz to get the 1800watt Sub Woofers going at 120 dB is "something every pro band wants"

Ive attended outdoor concerts that many attendees had to leave early because the sub woofers were just way too loud.

Once I witnessed a post show brawl between the band and their own house mix engineer , because after the band left the stage, the promoter told the band that since they played way too loud,  they would never be re-hired and future bookings were now cancelled = major loss of income, and the band was so upset because the only one to blame was their own roadie/ mix engineer, so they beat him up, and the cops had to break it up.


Toby Krebs

Sometimes an ass whippin' is what it takes to get the point across. I saw Chicago three years ago in Hollywood and the kick drum was earsplitting. No one got beat up but they had a heated discussion after the show about it. Young guy at the mixing board. I was right next to him and he thought it sounded great. I watched several people from the bands tech crew speak to him during the show and he not only ignored them he raised the sound over all up another couple of notches. Ridiculous! This sub woofer crap is BS. It's for dance music in a sweaty club. Not a classic rock concert. I agree that meat headed sound engineers are a problem too.

aliensporebomb

#71
It even infects major bands:

Rush is remixing their "Vapor Trails" CD, infamous for its horrid brick wall mastering job.

First listen to the samples of the remixed recording a fan got from Amazon (set playback to 1080p resolution for best audio quality):


Then read the article explaining the reasoning behind the remix
http://www.classicrockmagazine.com/features/lifeson-vapor-trails-is-an-important-record-our-return-after-a-horrible-nightmare/

If you haven't heard the original album, check it out.  It's very, very hard to listen to:


Just in your face to the point of headacheville.  The improved mix will make it at least listenable.

The problem: It's kids who learned to mix by setting the Waves L1 Ultramaximizer to MAXIMUM in a vain attempt to have the loudest record out there.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

#72
QuoteThe problem: It's kids who learned to mix by setting the Waves L1 Ultramaximizer to MAXIMUM in a vain attempt to have the loudest record out there.

Exactly! - which partially explains a current rising popular music trend popular among those older than age 35 to skip Metal, or Electric acts and focus on "NewGrass" or "Celtic" all acoustic shows - because the musicians on stage control the "lost" concept of "dynamics" - with loud and soft parts throughout the song  - an element missing in pop music since Nirvana Teenage spirit



But there is massive division and non acceptance of radical concepts in these bluegrass circles. If you show up at a New age Celtic or "NewGrass (BlueGrass)  act's show and offer to sit in with your GR-55 or VG-99. You will be laughed at and shunned and never be allowed to get your "VguitarGear" near the stage.

Remember the Audience Listen with their eyes.  - which explains why 80% of my recent "Acoustic" gigs I find myself playing my Line6 Variax 700 Acoustic.



Its crucial for the audience (and your band mates)  to believe you are playing a genre appropriate instrument.  Else you will be regarded as the dude who brought Garlic , Crosses and Silver Spikes to the Vampire re-union
They're listening with their eyes.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4900.0

mojo thorne

Quote from: aliensporebomb on September 27, 2013, 09:17:20 PM
The problem: It's kids who learned to mix by setting the Waves L1 Ultramaximizer to MAXIMUM in a vain attempt to have the loudest record out there.

This is the number one problem with music these days, and it affects almost all genres.  There are a lot of records being released with great writing that are completely unlistenable because the dynamics have been completely squeezed out of them.  I was very excited to hear the new Alice In Chains record this summer.  Their older albums like Dirt and Jar of Flies had excellent mixes and sounded very full.  Saw them in concert in May... sounded great.  The new album, however, was PAINFUL to listen to.  That's just one of many examples. 

A lot of great prog-metal bands are falling victim to this as well.  I love metal, but I don't see the point behind recording really complicated and/or expressive music if it's going to be butchered at the mixing and mastering stages.  There have been very few metal albums released since the mid 90's that really sound good, imo.

Unfortunately, the availability of home studio gear has really made this more prevalent because many people are also putting heavy compression on the master channel when mixing, which means that the mastering house has to hyper-compress the track to account for leveling or EQ variances between tracks.

aliensporebomb

Steve is totally right about playing a genre appropriate instrument: I actually got a lot more interest at the new age spirituality shows and psychic fairs playing the ambient stuff when I was playing this:



My more tuned into new age spirituality friend Amy tells me it's because of the sparkles.   Too bad that guitar is no longer around!

The black strat gets far less attention but it's much more convenient to have a built in GK pickup.  Maybe the next one will be more colorful.

Anyway, yeah, playing an electric guitar at a acoustic bluegrass jam will get you killed (verbally).  There's a place around here called "Homestead Picking Parlor" that's a combination instrument store and CD store specializing in that with sit-in jams. 

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.