GR-55 - Patch volume and tone volumes

Started by sine_3000, April 16, 2015, 12:18:36 PM

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sine_3000

I've been messing about with all the different volume levels, and I've discovered that the COSM "master" Tone Volume acts more like a pre-amp volume than a master level volume, in that it adds gain and overdrives the signal in a natural, harmonic-distortion guitar-y way.

This really confused me.  All along I have been setting the Tone Volume at an arbitrary mid-level, consistent across all my patches, assuming it was simply a line-level volume control.  Now I realize it is adding color and gain to the COSM tone!

If the Amp has a "level" control, and the Guitar Modeler has a pickup volume control, then what is the Tone Control comparable to, in an actual guitar setup?

Maybe it compares to nothing in a physical rig, and I guess that's okay, and I'm prepared (I think) to start using it to drive tone - but the fact that this is a completely unadvertised feature is pretty confusing and almost disingenuous on Roland's part.

Finally - what IS the volume control I can use as a final, non-tone-altering volume, to send to my amp?  I guess just the actual physical knob on the GR-55?  Someone please tell me that doesn't alter guitar gain, too...

admin

#1
Roland defines the four available sound sources in the GR-55 as "Tones"

Tone#1 = PCM 1
Tone#2 = PCM 2
Tone#3 = COSM Model Guitar
Tone#4 = Normal PU Guitar


and they are enabled / disabled from the main L/R Output here:



QuoteI've been messing about with all the different volume levels, and I've discovered that the COSM "master" Tone Volume acts more like a pre-amp volume than a master level volume, in that it adds gain and overdrives the signal in a natural, harmonic-distortion guitar-y way.


"COSM Tone Volume"  (= Modeled Guitar Volume), this would be similar to adjusting the Vol knob on your Guitar  - lower volume levels will be cleaner and higher volumes will overdrive


Quotewhat IS the volume control I can use as a final, non-tone-altering volume

"Patch Volume"

sine_3000

#2
I finally discovered "Patch Volume" in the Master sub-screen.  This is the ideal volume control to set patch levels across user patches.  Should be in big red letters across the top of the manual.

Roland's so-named "COSM Tone Volume"is misleading, I believe, because it modifies gain, whereas the equivalent "PCM Tone Volume" does not change gain (not that PCM patches are subject to this, but whatever).

And, I find that it is far more powerful that a mere "guitar volume" equivalent.  None of my guitars can add so much gain by increasing their volume knobs.  I feel it is much more akin to an amplifier's "preamp volume", which is designed, usually, to add gain to the tone.

But, since the GR-55 has a dedicated "guitar volume" and a dedicated "amp gain" volume, having this third volume level that affects tone poses a bit of a quandry for me.  Needless to say I will have to experiment to see of there is an ideal "neutral" level, or perhaps an optimal "gain" level that suits my playing style.

All of this is prefaced, I should add, from the fact that I just stumbled upon the concept of amp gain/level crossfading, using the Assigns - a revelation that had me almost wetting my pants, since this is something that I have dreamed about since I first plugged in my electric guitar lo these 30 years ago: turning a knob and increasing gain/overdrive, whilst simultaneously mollifying the inevitable increase in volume.  So putting a third gain level in my path is just irritating, and I want away with it!


Elantric

#3
For those who do not know - We have a COSM Reference Library of essential docs everyone should have access to:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0

Although many of these Docs were created by users of other Roland / Boss COSM gear - I feel its essential reading for all VG/GR-55/GP-10 users too.

What you will find there:

"Boss_GT-x_Set-up_v02.pdf"
"Boss_GT-8 Brilliance.pdf"

These docs explain many COSM AMP and FX Routing, EQ ideas

Also there - we have Roland GS-10 Docs  which provide in depth understanding on Rolands top COSM product of 2004, the Roland GS-10. Many concepts can be directly applied to the latest GP-10

An excerpt here:

Quote"The Roland GS-10's  Preamp/Speaker  effect contains sophisticated amplifier,  speaker and microphone
simulations: all in all it is associated with about thirty parameters.
In order to work with this complicated effect in an intelligent manner, it is vital to know in some
detail what all these parameters actually achieve and how they interact. Unfortunately, the Owner's
Manual gets no further than its familiarly terse descriptions.
This document tries to fill in some of these gaps, by providing detailed explanations and analyses.
The document first explains a few relevant basic audio concepts. Then it outlines Preamp/Speaker's
overall effect structure. After that it tackles the various effect sections and their parameters one by one,
aided by numerous frequency response plots. Then it discusses in considerable detail many aspects of
the individual emulated preamp types.


Download and read all the above  - to get a handle on "Which EQ do I use?" and many many other audio signal chain concepts

flyingb

#4
Example

Patch volume is 100.
--------------------------
PCM1 is 50
PCM2 is 60
MODELING is 100

Now I set PCM1 up to 100.

Does the patch total volume (still 100, of course) remain the same? Does it get louder? Does the GR "arrange" the percentages of the different tones in order to keep the patch volume unchanged?

And if, for example with the expression pedal, I lower PCM1 and PCM2 to zero... the patch volume remains the same?

Can anybody tell me how this thing of volume works?

Thank you.

gumtown

Tone Volume levels go from 0~100 and 50 is 'average' or unity, these levels are at the input stage.
Patch Level goes from 0~200, where 100 is unity, this level is at the output, this value is seen like a % level, so 200% would be a 3dB power gain.
If you change a PCM level, it will change but the output level stays the same, leaving the other tones unchanged.
If you change the Patch level, then all tones will vary a ratio of that amount.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Litesnsirens

I have found that the cosm modelled guitar volume is about double the gain that one would expect from normal magnetic pickups.  After having learned that I went back and set all my tone levels on my guitar patches to 50.  Now the amps tend behave far more like I expect them to when I am setting up tones.

Think of that patch volume as the final volume control, kind of like the master volume on the mixer.  Can the volume get louder if you just increase the volume of the piano channel or the guitar volume?  Yes of course.  If you have the mix between PCM1, PCM2, Model and Normal all set the way you like them then they should maintain their correlation as you raise or lower the patch volume.  The only caveat I will add is that certain tones do become more audible as you raise the volume in a mixer type situation but I think in this context that sort of physical behaviour would be far less noticeable.

flyingb

QuoteIf you have the mix between PCM1, PCM2, Model and Normal all set the way you like them then they should maintain their

That's exactly what I wanted to know.

robwatt

How do I set all GR55 patches at the same volume level for better performance at a gig. Not that suddenly a patch sound harder than the other while you changing a patch? This overcome me recently. Very embarrassing.

Litesnsirens

You're not going to find an easy way to do this.  There are a lot of different ideas people have used.  On idea is to find a patch you won't use and play something into the looper and let it loop.  Then go through all your patches and play along with the loop and try to get the volume of the patch to match the loop and then re-save it with that level.

admin

#10
Read the
GR-55 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137

GR-55 volume jump switching patches - solved![
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8375.0

Jim Wintringham wrote>

I was playing around with settings, to see what they do. I changed the SYSTEM HOLD assignment to "off" and found that in the off setting....the patch volumes jumped to "full on" volume when switching patches. Not nice! So I learned to have that setting to the "on" position, to keep things smooth when changing patches :)



and


* Fast method to reset the GR-55 patch level

use the EZ edit to set overall patch volumes, then 'write them into memory' ...so that switching between patches keeps the same levels.

Mauri60

Quote from: admsustainiac on December 01, 2015, 11:58:27 AM


* Fast method to reset the GR-55 patch level

use the EZ edit to set overall patch volumes, then 'write them into memory' ...so that switching between patches keeps the same levels.

Hi admsustainiac, sorry for my slow comprehension, I'll try to understand what this note meaning for about time ago, but my lack of English knowledge stops me to comprehend.
I often use EZ edit for some on-the-fly patch editing but... EZ edit changes are globally written into my user patch bank, or i have to repeat step per patch?
:)
thanks in advance
Nothing is impossible,if someone else will do for you.

Elantric

Use EZ Edit to rapidly access Patch Volume -
Set Volume level

Press Write twice

Repeat for every patch used live that need volume adjustment.

Mauri60

Thanks for clarification :)
My wrong translation was about "overall" = " same volume each patch " and not = "patch global level volume" my bad  :'(
Nothing is impossible,if someone else will do for you.

Litesnsirens

Right so try using the method I suggested using the EZ edit patch volume.  Find an unrelated patch... record a loop. Then go through all the patches you use and play along with the loop.  Use the ez edit patch volume to adjust the level of the patch so that it's relative to the level of the loop.  Hit write twice and move on to the next patch.  That will at least get you in the ball park.  Then at the gig if some are a little off just make mental notes of what to fix.  But at least there shouldn't be any huge surprises.