GR-55 - GK3 guitar out not working

Started by Elantric, February 16, 2011, 10:13:09 AM

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Fusion

Error on this link. I am new to the 55 and I am looking for info on the guitar out jack signal and what it is doing to the signal.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

Fusion

very cool, thanks, did all kinds of searches and nothing came up on noise or buffer
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

Toby Krebs

Dont use it if you can avoid it.
Use the two cable method
or modify the GR55 as I and others have done giving it an effect loop before the amp models.
this also gives you a nice guitar out far better than the noisy one Roland gives you.

I dont even like the GR55 guitar out for clean sounds so I dont use it

Fusion

Cool, that is what I wanted to know. I do not want to corrupt my std guitar chain. I am sure it is OK for an amp feed but I am running a more complex noise sensitive chain.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

MarkFromHawaii

Sorry I've been trying to read through this thread and I think it's a very important topic and I pretty much want to confirm...  My application is that this Saturday I'm playing a gig and there are tunes where I'll be playing though the GR-55 to my PA through a DI box.  There are other tunes where I was going to play through my tube amp with a Boss ME-70 in the effects loop (different guitar without the GK-3).  Last practice I found myself constantly switch between the 2 so I thought I may want to gear down and leave the amp and other guitar at home.  I'm now thinking about using the external output jack and from there go into the ME-70.  Both the ME-70 and GR-55 would have their left/mono outputs go into a single Whirlwind DI box high-Z inputs (LR) - not sure if I'll get ground loop/hum issues there.  So as to isolate the GR-55 synth/modelling sounds from the straight-thru mag pups on my guitar, I'll set a dedicated patch where only the dry, normal pickups tone switch is on in bypass mode and the set maybe Assign 1 to source = ctrl pdl (default = off, toggle mode), target = guitar out source (minimum = normal PU, maximum = modelling).  Anyway, I'll give this a try when I can.
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Fusion

Can the PA not handle a instrument level or line level input? Not sure why you would need DI's. The outputs on the 55 are pretty high level. I get zero noise on mine.
The guitar out is a buffered output which should not pose a problem to the Boss. A decent mixer should be able to handle the Boss or 55's outputs right into the board unless all you have are mic lowZ input channels. I get the simplicity thing. I am so used to the stereo feeds and the depth they add I can not run without them'
The main outs on the synth are so powerful mine cannot be past half way on the master.
Ground loop becomes an issue with multiple paths to ground, like several wall sockets or power outlets. I run my entire rig power off a Furman.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

MarkFromHawaii

Thanks Fusion.  I know when I use the ME-70 into the PA I lose some volume so it goes through the DI into the XLR channel input.  I haven't tried the GR-55 through the 1/4" line inputs, so I'll give that a try.  I've been thinking about getting a 49-key soft carrying case for the 2, but that's another topic entirely.  ;)
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

MarkFromHawaii

Well this is embarrassing:  I plugged the GR-55 to powered speakers and sent the guitar out to my Vox AD30VT plugged in the 13-pin cable to the GR-55 and GK-3 and completely forgot about the guitar-mix-GK switch!  No programming necessary to switch between normal pups and GK.  Duh!  ::)
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Elantric

QuoteSo I went back to a patch in which the normal pickup was not active and changed the level.  The guitar out level dropped as well.  Went back to the Mustang amp and tried it, and no unwanted distortion!  That's the solution for this particular problem with an amp like the Mustang.  I found that leaving the normal pickup level at about 50 pretty much matched the level that I got plugging the guitar directly into the amp.

Thanks for posting this discovery !

The GR-55 "Guitar Out" is unique among all VG/GR /GP units - because it allows a path for the DSP Guitar Modeling,  its the only Roland product that  employs  a DAC Output under CPU control for the "Guitar Out" signal.
Might also explain why some folks find the GR-55 Guitar Out usable with some Guitar amps  - with acceptable results (rare)

Fusion

Works but it is a buffered output which may or may not be kosher in some cases.
I do not use it because I run a full range pedal board for my std guitar. Prefer having my first buffer after my first several pedals.
I do not gain anything by running my pedalboard back into the GR rather than on to its rack gear and power amp.
Been my experience with this puppy that if there is an idea you have or a notion you can find a way to make it work.


The 55s outputs are extremely high level and fidelity range any decent mixer should take them fine without having to DI to low impedance XLR.
I actually use a small Mackie on my synth rig as I also run my DR880 into the same power amp it uses.
I am sure they are good enough to even drive a power amp directly. I keep my master vol mid way as any more it just drives too much. Very powerful puppy unlike a lot of other units I have used the 55 has incredible headroom.

Tell you cats, if you try a BBE on the synth it improves it. My BBEs are just before the power amps in my rack.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

guitared

 I have done the effects in/out mod on my gr 55, and seems to work great.
I am using the gr55 right now more for acoustic sounds to go out the outputs to a pa
and use alternate tuning modeled guitars to go to the "guitar out" output to a fender amp.

As far as I can tell, only the modeled guitar, with no cosm amp, effects go out the "guitar out" and to the fender amp,
and works well, but I get the sound also out of the outputs into the pa, which I do not want.
I have the system settings for modeled set to "patch" and  the setting in the patch "master" set to "both" for modeled and normal guitar.

Am I overlooking something here to turn it off at the outputs, and only on for guitar out?

I don't post much here at all, as most of my problems, I can find a solution for by reading up, but I don't see anything on this.
It takes me a while to get my ol' brain to get this stuff anymore.

guitar is a godin xtsa, by the way.

ed

Elantric

#361
QuoteAs far as I can tell, only the modeled guitar, with no cosm amp, effects go out the "guitar out" and to the fender amp,
and works well, but I get the sound also out of the outputs into the pa, which I do not want.

Turn off Normal Pickup here:


guitared

Sorry Steve, I don't think I was too clear. Lets say I got a modeled tele, open g tuning, and is going dry through the "guitar out" to my fender amp,
which is what I want.
The open g modeled tone is also coming out of the pa via the output jacks on the 55, which is what I don't want. How do I stop this? Short of reaching
down and turning down the volume knob on the 55.

Elantric

#363
Turn off Normal Pickup here: this panel is where you choose the tones you desire to





After Turning off Normal Pickup in panel above,( uncheck the box on far left)
Normal Pickup sound will NOT emerge from the main left  / Right output jacks

However you still get Normal Pickup sound from Guitar Out Jack 

gumtown

the Tone Select button switches "off/on" the tone passing through the GR-55,
the Guitar out is tapped out before the switch, both for normal guitar Tone and Modelled Tone.

I could be wrong, but I thing the Tone levels (0~100) affects the guitar out level too.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

guitared

OK, thanks for your help guys, I will look at this again, but I may have to wait a few weeks as I sold the xtsa this weekend
and waiting on a lgxt I ordered...

Elantric

#366
I have learned  the details of why the GR-55 Guitar Output has more noise than expected.

On other Roland/Boss GT/GP/GR processors the "Guitar Output  provides a "Dry normal pickup" signal output only - using an Op amp buffered (all analog) signal path.

The Roland GR-55's Guitar Output circuit is very different. (see below)  The Dry normal pickup" signal (from GK Pin #7) is being sent to an Analog to Digital converter and fed into a DSP, then a Digital to Analog converter. There is no Dry normal pickup direct Out analog signal path like other gear.

Roland designed the GR-55 in this manner with a goal of allowing the option for the GR-55 to feed its COSM Guitar modelling and DSP Alt tuning signal to your other Guitar FX and Amp (via the "Guitar Out" jack), to function rather like a Variax. This was the lowest cost method for Roland to achieve the unique attributes / features.  Remember for any GR-55 preset, the GR-55's Guitar Output can be reconfigurable for choice of :

* Dry Normal PU sound  Only
* COSM Modeled Guitar Sound
* Muted ( no Sound)

They use the DSP to provide this re-routing, which was implemented at a lower cost ( and fewer parts) than a low noise FET analog switching circuit.
 

Start reading at first post in this thread for details on methods of modifying the GR-55 to provide a "Dry normal pickup" signal output only - using an all analog) signal path for lower noise.


Mauri60

Hi guys!
I'm moving my first steps with gr55 and i have a question about this thread.
Reading some comments about normal PU signal routing, it seems to be that better connection for normal pu signal, is a direct cable bypassing Gk's internal routing, due to hiss noises and not transparent (dry) signal.
with my old Beloved :) GR1, i always use guitar return and connect this to a volume pedal, and after i go into overdrive SD1 directly connected to my AMP. GR1 mix out, only for synth sound, if i use GK routing.
passing time, i heard some normal Pu signal came out from mix out (sign of time passages :( ), and definitively use a separate cable.
now with no guitar return,i must to use double cable , GK+normal 1/4" jack...
question... i read about possibility to route normal PU to internal effects, but if  want to i only have to run signal with GK cable correct? when I'm on stage i prefer to use my analogical effects via my pedalboard, BTW for practicing i can carry only guitar and gr55 with a significant time and weight saving!
is GK routing signal so terrible?
thanks in advance., mauri   
Nothing is impossible,if someone else will do for you.

AngeloEvs

I have only had my GR55 a few weeks and did an assessment of the normal output into my back line valve amp ( tube if you are American).  My findings were pretty much inline with the observations made by others, it all depends on how much pre amp gain you use to get the level of distortion you need.  The noise was within acceptable limits for the amount of Gain/distortion I need.  There is a tendency to overdo the level of gain, you don't need that much to get great solo lead tones but that is just my opinion.


Like you I have been using the GR1 since they first appeared and always used a separate cable for my normal pick up to amp,  having the synth multicore cable and a separate guitar cable was never a problem for me.

In a nutshell, the noise depends on the amount of Gain you will use either in your pedals or pre-amp stage of your backline amp.

Elantric

Your mileage may vary

Just going to have to try and see if the GR-55 Guitar out noise is acceptable for YOUR rig

(Everyone's 1/4" guitar signal path is different )

Mauri60

#370
Hi everyone!
I'll rewrote my question because i saw a big confusion in my words.
here I'm again for second try.
my intention is to use only my GR55 for band practice sessions,and let's tons of equipment home :)
in practice room i have two choices. a guitar amp, and PA through mixer.
1)PCM come out from Stereo or mono outs and this is easy to achieve :)
2)probably i need to route from outputs Cosm acoustic guitar patches.
3)cosm electric guitar patches may goes to guitar amp ( via send ex loops to bypass unit preamp.)
4)normal PU to guitar amp but if i let my pedalboard efx at home, i need to color normai Pu's with gr55 effects and preamps...
surely i need to mix some of these sounds together, so i imagine in my head this scenario.
this is my wishlist... is that possible?
I'll search a lot, but I'm not able to find an answer, due probably to my lack of skill with English , sadly... thanks in advance, help is  very appreciate . Mauri
EDIT.
maybe i have to make a choice and think to use only one output for every sound sources?
eg. all from L/R outs and forget to use guitar amp for practice sessions? ( this means all sounds to mixer and PA System )
thanks again for your comments!
mauri
Nothing is impossible,if someone else will do for you.

gumtown

I would forget about the guitar amp and use the GR-55 only through the P.A.
The GR-55 amp and cabinet modeling will make the guitar tones out of the P.A. speakers sound like it is coming from a guitar amp.
With the GR-55 internal routing, the PCM synths run direct to the GR-55 output (maybe with some effects if required), and the normal guitar and modelled guitar tones are routed through the amp/cabinet modelling and then to the GR-55 output (and through effects if required).

Also it keeps the setup very simple.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Mauri60

Quote from: gumtown on September 27, 2015, 04:27:08 PM
I would forget about the guitar amp and use the GR-55 only through the P.A.
The GR-55 amp and cabinet modeling will make the guitar tones out of the P.A. speakers sound like it is coming from a guitar amp.
With the GR-55 internal routing, the PCM synths run direct to the GR-55 output (maybe with some effects if required), and the normal guitar and modelled guitar tones are routed through the amp/cabinet modelling and then to the GR-55 output (and through effects if required).

Also it keeps the setup very simple.
8) thank you so much.
I ask this because i don't give power to outputs through a  p.a. yet,neither to my reference studio monitors.
i use my GR only at home, with phones due to late night tests  ;D
very soon i have a band practice session and i put hands forward to avoid surprises. 
ok this solution for practice, but on stage live, i might have another normal guitar line through my analog fx , via a separate cable, just for a "rapid escape" in case of necessity, also for blending cosm, and/or normal pu if i need to add an analog sound.
thanks again, Mauri
Nothing is impossible,if someone else will do for you.

viramundo

I have been through most of the 15 pages of this thread but haven't noticed any solution for my specific Guitar out jack problem.

Yes the guitar out signal is a bit hissy but that doesn't bother me much as I mostly use clean sounds.

My problem is this.

A lot of my favourite patches that I've made up involve using the modelling channel set to E.bass JB 5th & 6th strings, some synths on the PCM's like strings & organ etc. & the normal sound of the guitar mixed in.
In order for the bass sound to sound at a suitable volume I have to set the modelled level at 100 & dial back the normal & PCM sounds to around 40 or less. This works fine when I just use the main outputs but should I want to use the guitar output jack out as well for something like a feed to a harmoniser or other effects the volume of the guitar out when set to normal (which is what I want) is always determined by the tone level of the normal guitar in the patch & in this case it's too low in volume.
This seems to be the case whether I set the guitar out to normal in system or in each patch.

Is there any way around this other than taking another lead from my guitars normal output?

gumtown

From my fading recollection,
the Tone Volume of each tone source controls also the 'guitar out' level too, as well as the internal pass through the chain to the L/R outputs.
If the modelled J-Bass level is too low at the main L/R outputs, you might need to route it through 'MFX' and use Eq, Amp Sim, or Compressor to boost the level through the GR-55 effects chain.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/