Question re: RC-50 changing tempo when i press Rec/Play/Overdub

Started by fungusgarden, February 01, 2012, 06:11:14 PM

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fungusgarden

BOSS RC-50 LOOPSTATION ??
"When I press Rec/Play/Overdub the tempo jumps up to a random tempo, sometimes double (170 bpm).  Is there something I am overlooking ? Has anyone else encountered this?"

I apologize if this has been covered. I did try searching for a solution first but came up empty handed.

     I am playing around with a GR-55 guitar synth , RC-50 Looper and and SR-18 Drum Machine. I sync the drum machine(slave) to the RC-50(master) and thru to the GR-55. Everything seems to be syncing correctly but I am having an issue.  When I start recording(on the RC-50) everything starts and syncs and does what is expected.  :o Here's my problem. When I press Rec/Play/Overdub after recording my first phrase the tempo jumps up to a random tempo, sometimes double (170 bpm). I have tried disconnecting all other gear and just experimenting with the RC-50 and it still does it. I have all of the phrase tempos on the RC-50 set the same(example 80 bpm) and the patch tempo on the RC-50 is also set to 80 bpm. I also have tempo sync and loop sync turned on. Is there something I am overlooking ? Has anyone else encountered this?

Thank You,
fungusgarden


GK equipped Schecter Solo-6 Guitar
Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth (slave)
Boss RC-50 Loop Station (master midi clock)
Alesis SR-18 Drum Machine (slave)

fungusgarden


shawnb

Never had this exact problem.   This feels like one of two issues:
   (1) Something else feels he owns tempo & is feeding it back to the RC50 somehow, or
   (2) The RC50's tempo/tempo sync settings aren't in alignment between the patch, the phrase & your MIDI clock settings, and the phrase or patch are reverting to it's initial setting....

A couple of questions:

1.  Making sure I heard correctly - so your MIDI chain is as follows, correct?
      RC50 MIDI OUT => SR-18 MIDI IN; SR18 MIDI THRU =>  GR55
2.   Is this connected to your computer anywhere?   Please confirm no DAW connections & no usage of USB cables (which may be providing another MIDI path).
3.  What is your RC50 MIDI Sync setting at the patch level?  I think you want this INTERNAL.  (Manual pg 50)
4.  What is your RC50 MIDI Sync setting at the system level?   If this is INTERNAL you should be OK - if not, you should have this set to PATCH and ensure you patch level is set to INTERNAL.   (Manual pg 75)
5.  What is the patch tempo setting on your RC50 patch?  Does this match what it jumps to?  (Manual pg 38)
6.  What is the tempo setting on your RC50 phrase in question?   Does it match what it jumps to?  (Manual pg 37)
7.   What is the tempo sync setting on your RC50 phrase in question?  You want this ON.  (Manual pg 53 & 36)
8.   Do you have the RC50 guide on?   I would experiment with this OFF, and with this ON & the volume set to 0.   In theory you don't want it because you're using the SR18 for drums.   In practice, I think the RC50 works a little smarter (i.e., gapless...) with it ON - just cut the volume if you don't want to hear it.   

The RC50's setting of AUTO follows the internal clock unless a MIDI START is received from another device.  Thus the setting of AUTO should work also, unless something else thinks it owns MIDI clock.  If changing the RC50 from AUTO to INTERNAL solves the problem, you have something else in your MIDI chain that thinks it's in control. 

Hope this helps, if nothing else step you thru all the options to check!

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

fungusgarden

Thank you for helping !!!

This is the correct chain
RC50 MIDI OUT => SR-18 MIDI IN; SR18 MIDI THRU =>  GR55

no usb , pc , etc.....

I have made sure to match both the system clock and the phrase tempo to the same BPM.

I originally thought some sort of midi clock feedback or something , but i ruled that out by trying it with everything disconnected. I also did a factory reset to the unit. Now with the unit only plugged into the wall, I hit play/Rec and it starts recording. Then when I hit it again, or sometimes even when i stop it and restart it, it will start at a different tempo. I will double check my clock settings , but im pretty sure they are both set to internal. I am still trying different combonations to see if i can trace it. It seems if i start a loop , record, maybe delete , start again , etc a few times , it then starts to work properly. I've never noticed this before adding the SR-18 , so i assumed it was a sync issue, but since then, like  i said, ive isolated the RC-50 and tried it on its own. It doesnt seem to jump to a number that i (or the factory would ever set either. Its always like 142.7 or 84.3, odd tempos, random.

fungusgarden

following up:

I guess i never noticed it when i wasnt using a drum machine because it doesnt effect the actual loop. in other words. If you were using only the RC-50 it would still "sound" normal when the problem arises. The only way to tell is by looking at the flashing light(i think maybe it is doubling tempo or something). Example, if i tap out the tempo to approx, 70 BPM and record a loop, the light will flash at 70 bpm, however , when i press over/rec it then starts flashing twice as fast. The loop still sounds the same and is techniacally in sync, but at 1/2 or cut time or something. Not noticable when only using the RC-50, but very noticble with the drum machine. I know its something in the RC-50 that is causing it because as mentioned before , it does it even when i isolate it. All i can figure is  it is trying to tempo  match the other phrases or something, i dont know. I guess i need to dig into the manual a little deeper. I have read it , but i must be overlooking the way tempo sync works or something. My aim is to be able to have all the phrases match whatever , i tap out regardless of what is stored in the preset. Shouldnt this be possible ?

Thanks Again,
fungusgarden

shawnb

Quote from: fungusgarden on February 02, 2012, 12:04:47 PM
My aim is to be able to have all the phrases match whatever , i tap out regardless of what is stored in the preset. Shouldnt this be possible ?

Of course, if your preset is setup that way!!!! ;D

Sometimes when working these things, I overwork 'em and hose the settings...   Please double-check 3-7 above; don't assume gremlins haven't changed 'em...   And experiment with 8 above (guide on & off).   

This really feels like tempo sync is OFF.   Note that the tempo settings in 6-7 above are at the phrase level & need to be checked for each phrase having the issue. 

Does this happen for every phrase on your patch?   For every patch?

Good luck!

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

fungusgarden

It is happening on every phrase and every patch. I have tried experimenting with all of the settings you have listed above other than , i cant seem to find where you turn the guide off. I have it turned down so i dont hear it , but i havnt found where to turn it off. The part that is driving me crazy is once i go through a few loops or stop it and start it it acts a though its working properly, but then out of nowhere, majpr tempo change. I am also experiencing it when i hit the stop button as well as the rec/play button. so if i have a loop playing while viewing the current BPM in the LED display , when i hit stop , it also changes to a random bpm. errrg  >:( , im certain this has to be a setting /human error. Im not giving up... I will keep trying things until i nail it. (hopefully)


fungusgarden

shawnb


My last guess is that the guide may be somehow defaulting to 'on' unless explicitly turned 'off.  In theory, the level knob fully counterclockwise is 'off'.   I'd rotate it clockwise a bit, then fully counterclockwise.   

(I have this issue with the one piece of Line6 gear I have, the JL4...  I have to turn its FX dial ON & OFF for OFF to register...)

Another thing to try - clearly not your end state - but turn the guide ON and turn the level up.   Does the guide follow your desired tempo at all times?   Or does it match the erroneous phrase tempo?    Probably a clue in there...   

If these don't work, I'm now formally out of ideas...   Another factory reset?   Possible HW issue?    I dunno...

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

fungusgarden

well im very thankful for your ideas. I am getting ready to sit down and mess around with it some more to see whats going on with it. I had to take a break so i dont go crazy :o

I will repost if/when i have new info.

Thanks,
fungusgarden

shawnb


Last desperation move - It is possible that the patch.rc5 or system.rc5 files on the RC50 were somehow corrupted.   

There is a procedure on page 82 of the manual to restore them - it is a different process than a 'factory reset'.  Basically you copy the files off of the recovery CD that came with your RC50.   (If you don't have that disc they are likely online somewhere...)   

I would back those files up in their current state, just in case, then follow the instructions on page 82 to recover them. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

fungusgarden


shawnb

Was this ever resolved?   I'd like to know!   May happen to me one day...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

fungusgarden

not yet. I had to go out of town for the weekend. I am going to mess around with it some more when i get home from work today. If I do discover what is wrong, or what i am doing wrong, i will follow with another reply.  :)



fungusgarden

#13
"8.   Do you have the RC50 guide on?   I would experiment with this OFF, and with this ON & the volume set to 0.   In theory you don't want it because you're using the SR18 for drums.   In practice, I think the RC50 works a little smarter (i.e., gapless...) with it ON - just cut the volume if you don't want to hear it."    :-\ if only i paid mmore attention to #8 , damn you number eight......


;D
OK
first let me apologize for not following your advice a little closer. I thought I was doing everything right down the list , but I guess I got a bit confused about the Guide Level On/Off setting. It seems if as long as I keep the Guide turned on it never changes/doubles tempo on me. I have it set to a low enough volume so I cant hear it. As long as it's on , the Tempo stays at whatever I tap regardless of what I press (this is good  ;D). However, This still doesn't make sense to me. I thought the guide was only there as an audible reference . Why by turning it off does the RC-50 seem to change/double tempo. Im happy I found a fix, but , if I turn the Guide level all the way to the "OFF" position and then try to do the same exact thing , it doubles tempo. If I tap something real slow (say 70 bpm) and the hit Play/Rec it will go to 140. As long as I keep the guide on , it doesnt do this. This seems almost like a malfunction , unless my understanding of how it works is way off.


Thanks

shawnb

One of the biggest issues with the RC50 is that it's too darned complicated...
For the life of me, I don't know why they consider tempo sync & following the guide's tempo two separate things...
What I DO know is that it behaves better with the guide on.   

I suspect this is just a workaround for now.   

I am down to TWO theories:
(1)  Control files are corrupted somehow.   If you follow the 'restore' procedure on page 82 & the problem goes away, this idea is proven.
(2)  With the guide OFF, the RC50 back-calculates the phrase's tempo based on the length of your recording (read the 'guide off' part of pg 36 of the manual).   The instant you're done recording your first phrase, it does this calculation, and in fact, will set the patch tempo to match what it thinks you just did.   It's possible that something about how you are working the pedals is registering in a way that makes your RC50 believe your tempo is something quite different. I never did ask if you have used the RC50 a lot in the past or not.     If the problem goes away after you've learned to play with the guide ON for a while, I suspect this is the case.  :D

If you are just now getting familiar with the RC50 - Are you recording 2 measure phrases or more like 16 measure phrases as your initial phrase?    If you're recording the 16 measure first part of Dogs as your first project, you might want to start much simpler, with 2 measure initial tracks.   I.e., start very simple.

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

fungusgarden

Thank you for all the help. I have been playing with the RC-50 for a few months , but I only used the internal guide to assist me , so i never really had a need to turn it off until I got the SR-18. I kinda understand what its doing (i guess) my timing must not be perfect (imagine that) and without the guide it is trying to figure out why i punched in early/late and compensating. Eitherway, its working beautifully now and i will experiment with some different things. Thank you again for your help.

shawnb

fungusgarden -

I unboxed & played around with my old RC50 today, so just for fun, I tried to reproduce your results.  And yes, I can reproduce your results VERY easily...   (Often by accident...) 

The culprit is DEFINITELY the 'back calculation' of tempo that the RC50 does when the GUIDE is OFF and you are making an original recording with tempo sync on.   I can't find anywhere where it tells you the exact calculation, but it says the calculation is based on your time signature, length of recording, and the # of beats it believes you just recorded.  It's calculation is dependent on you recording in line with the tempo prior to recording, and recording exactly 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc. (power of 2), beats.

What I've found:
  • It's more accurate if the tempo is in the 90-140 range.  Very low tempos, e.g., 60-70bpm, it will tend to double-up.   Very high tempos, e.g., 160bpm+, it will usually halve. 
  • It's much more accurate if your recording is 4 beats (1 measure), very rarely wrong.  This isn't very helpful, though, because who wants the looper restricted to one measure...
  • It's NEVER accurate if the # of beats is NOT a power of 2.   (6 beats REALLY confuses it...)
This behavior is VERY easy to miss, because it will play back your recording exactly as you heard it, but the tempo sent downstream will either be 50% or 200% of what you intended.  If you hear what you recorded, who cares?  However, this REALLY becomes apparent when driving a rhythm machine downstream, just like you were doing. 

Based on this, I have some further suggestions:
  • If you find drum patterns that work better in the 100-140bpm range, I suspect you'll have far fewer issues than working at 70bpm or 200bpm.
  • It will never 'back calculate' a tempo if there is an existing recording on another phrase.   You can use the RC50 users' old trick of having a pre-recorded phrase (blank works) to firmly establish the phrase length & tempo.  A pre-recorded blank phrase is also helpful to setup your rhythm box to "count in" for you.
  • It will never 'back calculate' a tempo if the guide is on. 

This is EXACTLY why the new RC300 completely rethunk this...   It doesn't 'back calculate' tempos; its tempo is its tempo.  Learning from the RC50, they simplified it a lot to avoid this kind of craziness...

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp