Time for a New Injection in 13 Pin Land

Started by Rhcole, August 11, 2016, 05:38:56 PM

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gumtown

You can't get enough power down a fibre optic cable to drive the GK electronics.
Fibre optic cables are also not built to withstand repetitive movement without breaking (OM3 multimode).
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stratrat

Didn't the old Shadow GTM-6 have a "multiplexer" that sent all six signals down one normal cable? I'd guess that any signal that can run down a standard cable could just as easily go through a wireless system...

Also, with modern electronics, it shouldn't be a problem to design a successor to the GK that uses far less power...

gumtown

Quote from: stratrat on August 14, 2016, 06:05:16 PM
Didn't the old Shadow GTM-6 have a "multiplexer" that sent all six signals down one normal cable? I'd guess that any signal that can run down a standard cable could just as easily go through a wireless system...

Also, with modern electronics, it shouldn't be a problem to design a successor to the GK that uses far less power...
no on both counts,
with 6 hex signals + 1 normal P.U + GK controls, you are looking at 8 x the normal audio bandwidth, which takes 20kHz bandwidth to over 160kHz.
In uncompressed digital format that is a 12Mbps data throughput. So a regular guitar wireless wouldn't cut it.

You can build electronics smaller, but for a given amount of audio power required at the (current analog) GK outputs,
you still can't get something from nothing, the same milliwatt output is required.
The GK-3 only uses a few 10's of milliamperes.

What (if) ever the GK-3 successor is, an external mounting one will still require a GK "Wart", unless things were different.
But if the future in hex-GK can be miniature digital, there is no reason why the simplest install couldn't be an internal kit,
and using only the existing guitar jack socket.
Futuristic electronics might allow the hex pickup to be locally wireless through wireless charging techniques to the internally fitted GK main unit,
the GK internal unit being half the size of a match box, which would fit inside the control cavity of any guitar, and only requiring being fitted to intercept the wiring to the guitar jack.
When the guitar is plugged into a normal amp, the GK unit is bypassed, or when the guitar is plugged into a Roland/Boss hex processor, the GK internal unit comes 'alive'.
You would then have the option if you wanted external controls, like S1/S2/GK-Vol.

That is where I see the future of hex guitar, making the technology transparent to all GK non-believers, and accessible to guitars without the warts. 

or possibly this idea just makes me sound like a deranged manic?
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

chrish

Quote

''That is where I see the future of hex guitar, making the technology transparent to all GK non-believers, and accessible to guitars without the warts. 

or possibly this idea just makes me sound like a deranged manic?''
unquote
These types of hypothetical discussions are educational, so not a deranged manic. :-)

I have asked the question before,but i am confussed as to why folks like us, who enjoy the gk tech, think that other guitarists, who are into pure tone from great guitars, amps and fx,  somehow need to be persuaded to join 'the club' by offering even more complex signal transmission means.

Currently, the gk concept is fairly simple.   

Let's at least be honest and realize that any new tech that we desire is to suit our needs alone.

   

pasha811

Quote from: mooncaine on August 14, 2016, 01:33:11 PM
Wireless seems promising.

Just paring this whole thing down to one cable, a reliable simple cable you can fix or replace easily, is enough.

Fiber optics looks like a lot of extra parts and expense to get the same job done, but merely marginally better than metal cable, so no point there. You still have a weird cable you can't fix or easily find replacements for.

The cable is the Achilles's heel of the system. I have learned to have always two at all times. Gone are the times when little soldering on stage could have fixed everything or you can have spare good cables 1/4" that cost a fraction of the 13 pin.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

pasha811

Quote from: gumtown on August 14, 2016, 06:52:47 PM

That is where I see the future of hex guitar, making the technology transparent to all GK non-believers, and accessible to guitars without the warts. 

or possibly this idea just makes me sound like a deranged manic?

I am with you 100% but we have to keep in mind that the concept of 'invasive' internal 'wart' with soldering included (like GK3 -Internal)
might scare someone, not willing to adopt the tech because of that. The future of Hexa Guitar relies as you said in making the technology transparent to all GK non-believers, and accessible to guitars without the warts. Many guitarists today actually replace their original PU with others to achieve their own sound. I see those guitarists adopting this technology because in the end becomes an 'usual' mod, just another PU that opens doors to a wider sound palette than having more guitars. Miniaturization will surely help. I like the wireless 'local' concept you talked about, so that you actually apply the Hexa to the pickguard (the hexa will always use that close to bridge position, it's physics) and then the data is transmitted inside the guitar body. Then it's only a matter of soldering (like today's GK3 internal kit)  but without the hassle of creating a routing for the 13 pin female socket! I like it.
Another evolution in computational power, might be a super miniaturization and evolution or whatever happens in SY-300 today. Let's imagine a little box like Sonuus guitar to midi converter and the ability to 'read' all strings in a real polyphonic mode, you can have this even without an hexa PU and internal soldering. One can dream. That will be the door to massive adoption, while the previous (and doable with today's tech) one will move from niche to 'adopted' this beloved tech we all enthusiasts own. Your idea it's great. I was thinking also to stereo 1/4" connectors to open electrical possibilities even more but I am no electronics wizard like you, so I might be wrong.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Smash

Quote from: gumtown on August 14, 2016, 06:52:47 PM
no on both counts,
with 6 hex signals + 1 normal P.U + GK controls, you are looking at 8 x the normal audio bandwidth, which takes 20kHz bandwidth to over 160kHz.
In uncompressed digital format that is a 12Mbps data throughput. So a regular guitar wireless wouldn't cut it.

You can build electronics smaller, but for a given amount of audio power required at the (current analog) GK outputs,
you still can't get something from nothing, the same milliwatt output is required.
The GK-3 only uses a few 10's of milliamperes.

What (if) ever the GK-3 successor is, an external mounting one will still require a GK "Wart", unless things were different.
But if the future in hex-GK can be miniature digital, there is no reason why the simplest install couldn't be an internal kit,
and using only the existing guitar jack socket.
Futuristic electronics might allow the hex pickup to be locally wireless through wireless charging techniques to the internally fitted GK main unit,
the GK internal unit being half the size of a match box, which would fit inside the control cavity of any guitar, and only requiring being fitted to intercept the wiring to the guitar jack.
When the guitar is plugged into a normal amp, the GK unit is bypassed, or when the guitar is plugged into a Roland/Boss hex processor, the GK internal unit comes 'alive'.
You would then have the option if you wanted external controls, like S1/S2/GK-Vol.

That is where I see the future of hex guitar, making the technology transparent to all GK non-believers, and accessible to guitars without the warts. 

or possibly this idea just makes me sound like a deranged manic?

+1

vanceg

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on August 13, 2016, 09:59:57 AM
Gibson has constantly tinkered with the Les Paul, including wild forays into electronically-enhanced guitars.  None have really stuck as a replacement for the '59.  It just shows that a great design can easily last through the ages.


Or, it shows that the aesthetic that is enabled by this design has remained interesting to people through the years. 

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: gumtown on August 14, 2016, 06:52:47 PM
no on both counts,
with 6 hex signals + 1 normal P.U + GK controls, you are looking at 8 x the normal audio bandwidth, which takes 20kHz bandwidth to over 160kHz.
In uncompressed digital format that is a 12Mbps data throughput. So a regular guitar wireless wouldn't cut it.

You can build electronics smaller, but for a given amount of audio power required at the (current analog) GK outputs,
you still can't get something from nothing, the same milliwatt output is required.
The GK-3 only uses a few 10's of milliamperes.

What (if) ever the GK-3 successor is, an external mounting one will still require a GK "Wart", unless things were different.
But if the future in hex-GK can be miniature digital, there is no reason why the simplest install couldn't be an internal kit,
and using only the existing guitar jack socket.
Futuristic electronics might allow the hex pickup to be locally wireless through wireless charging techniques to the internally fitted GK main unit,
the GK internal unit being half the size of a match box, which would fit inside the control cavity of any guitar, and only requiring being fitted to intercept the wiring to the guitar jack.
When the guitar is plugged into a normal amp, the GK unit is bypassed, or when the guitar is plugged into a Roland/Boss hex processor, the GK internal unit comes 'alive'.
You would then have the option if you wanted external controls, like S1/S2/GK-Vol.

That is where I see the future of hex guitar, making the technology transparent to all GK non-believers, and accessible to guitars without the warts. 

or possibly this idea just makes me sound like a deranged manic?

I think you're coming close to describing my FTP guitars.......if only Roland would but a USB host connection on their synths.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

dayn

I'd love to have a GP-10 app on my iPad, with a small 13-pin adapter/interface to plug my guitar into, so I could do everything in a smaller format for travel. Just bring my small travel guitar and the spade and interface and that is it. The Gp-10 is small, but smaller/lighter would be great for airplane travel.

ericar123

After owning a VG8,VG88,VG9,GR1 and GR30 I feel that Roland has given up so I have given up on Roland.
I bought an AXE FX and haven't touched my Roland stuff since. The AXE can't do everything the VG99 can do
but to me the most important thing is amp modeling and if Roland would have put a little effort into it I think
they could have been so far ahead of anyone else that they would have owned the market. Like most people
here, I waited and waited for an updated product but nothing came. By now there should have been a digital
pickup that sent the divided signal to the VG unit and the models and effects should be as good as Fractal's .
We should have had a do-all Roland VG system that would be the most powerful music instrument ever . I would have gladly
parted with my money for the latest VG but Roland doesn't even care. Hopefully Fractal Audio or some other company will
see that add-on guitar modeling is still something people want and will pay for. This forum would be a good place for any manufacturer to get feedback on what will sell.

Elantric

#36
QuoteAfter owning a VG8,VG88,VG9,GR1 and GR30 I feel that Roland has given up so I have given up on Roland.
I bought an AXE FX and haven't touched my Roland stuff since. The AXE can't do everything the VG99 can do
but to me the most important thing is amp modeling and if Roland would have put a little effort into it I think
they could have been so far ahead of anyone else that they would have owned the market. Like most people
here, I waited and waited for an updated product but nothing came. By now there should have been a digital
pickup that sent the divided signal to the VG unit and the models and effects should be as good as Fractal's .
We should have had a do-all Roland VG system that would be the most powerful music instrument ever . I would have gladly
parted with my money for the latest VG but Roland doesn't even care. Hopefully Fractal Audio or some other company will
see that add-on guitar modeling is still something people want and will pay for. This forum would be a good place for any manufacturer to get feedback on what will sell.

I have to agree with you!

and most of the guitar population apparently does too

The Fractal Forum has 33,000 members - twice the size of VGuitarforums
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/

and Fractal provides direct involvement of their engineering team with their customers on their forum and respond swiftly with either instructions on hookups or implement new firmware to achieve customers needs  - same as any other relevant M.I. company in 2016 does
http://line6.com/support/forum/14-community-support/

I grow weary of the cultural "barrier " Roland / Boss maintains / enforces with their global customers.

After nearly 9 years of attempting to break through that wall,
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.0
nothing has really changed and we have no impact with decision makers who prefer to focus on headphones for HipHop DJ's 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18861.msg134498#msg134498

While they continue to ignore 6 months worth of pleas to fix major software bugs in their Guitar product Editors / Librarians

Boss Tone Studio for GP-10 verison 1.10 Bugs
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17889.0

Lack of profitable sales in their Guitar division is the direct result of their non attention as we witness the self induced implosion  / erosion of Roland / Boss'  involvement in DSP Guitar  / Amp Modeling  market segment they invented and once dominated - due to their own apparent lack of interest or new ideas.

at least Roland / Boss UK has a better grasp on customer needs
http://www.roland.co.uk/blog/category/how-to-guides-2/

they even have a user forum ( Printer product only)
http://www.rolandforum.co.uk/

the Roland UK Music gear forum is now dead
http://www.rolandforums.co.uk/forums/

Elantric

The Roland UK forum has died -

but there is an official Roland  / Boss Canada Forum here

https://rolandcanada.zendesk.com/forums/21240743-BOSS-GUITAR

Since Boss US ignores my communications, I have attempted to post on the Roland  / Boss Canada Forum about the Boss Tone Studio for GP-10 version 1.10 bug

But its pending a moderator approval

chrish

#38
Quote from: Elantric on August 18, 2016, 10:32:36 AM
The Roland UK forum has died -

but there is an official Roland  / Boss Canada Forum here

https://rolandcanada.zendesk.com/forums/21240743-BOSS-GUITAR

Since Boss US ignores my communications, I have attempted to post on the Roland  / Boss Canada Forum about the Boss Tone Studio for GP-10 version 1.10 bug

But its pending a moderator approval
And that's the problem when corps try to do social media. Their best course of action would be to participate in open public forums and not try to control them with the company line. Maybe roland sees the future of music without the passionate, skilled musician.

Elantric

#39
The problem is the tight corporate control , with no path of communication from users forces customers to feel like untouchables






Rhcole

We are still years away from regular pickups being as a capable as hex pickups. Despite my love for the SY-300, it would be twice the box or more if it had a hex input.

I wonder if there is any number or guess of how many total hex P/Us have sold over the years, maybe even including Fishman.

100,000? 1,000,000?

gumtown

#41
Quote from: Rhcole on August 18, 2016, 12:12:03 PMI wonder if there is any number or guess of how many total hex P/Us have sold over the years, maybe even including Fishman.

100,000? 1,000,000?

Not as many as there are DJ Headphones apparently.

While on the subject, I am a member of a local F.B. Musicians page, and today someone advertised wanting a DJ for a wedding.
So I guess playing pre-recorded music while twiddling pretend knobs and fist pumping up in the air is musicianship, then I am going about it all wrong ??
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

chrish

^I never understood why a couple would hire a dj for a wedding when the same money could hire a band.

Elantric

#43
Because most typical 21 year olds in the western world have music tastes that much prefer the Beyonce dance tunes a DJ spins, and not interested in hiring a full guitar based band that plays "grandpa music"

and hiring one DJ for wedding leaves more booze for the guests at the open bar ;)

chrish

Seems like a surf band would do well in a college town by the sea. I remember as a kid staring at a Ventures alblum cover,  (Mosrite guitars if i remember correctly), and thinking how much i wanted an electric guitar instead of the unplayable high action on the third fret acoustic that was my parents idea of what a guitar was.
So i guess that we are all subject to 'image' and dj's have promoted themselves well playing scratches. I guess some kid out there is dreaming of headphones. :-)

whippinpost91850


germanicus

Hoping that roland puts out a new VG unit of some type. I recently sold my vg99, so no longer really have any 13 pin units (still have some gk3's and 2s but otherwise first time in about 15 years without a roland guitar synth).

Working solely with JTV/Helix/Tripleplay.

Roland needs to produce something that these units can not do, or otherwise do significantly better to get me back in the fold.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

XavierV

#47
I just want VGuitar sims/pitchshifting to get better and better.  13 pin land is awesome but it's a shame most guitarists aren't familiar with it and/or have the wrong preconceptions of what 13 pin land really is. :(

I can't wait for new 13 pin gear

Rhcole

It's also possible Fishman has thrashed Roland on the synth part of the game. I'm not sure Roland can get on even ground with the FTP and Fishman is definitely continuing development. I had a chance to speak with Fishman's design team, they are enthusiastic about their product.

gumtown

#49
Quote from: germanicus on August 18, 2016, 05:24:16 PMWorking solely with JTV/Helix/Tripleplay.

Roland needs to produce something that these units can not do, or otherwise do significantly better to get me back in the fold.

A new VG unit with a small DJ scratchy turntable thingy on top, which makes a "quewpee quewpee" noise ?
If they do something the others can't do, it better be useful.  ;)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/