Time for a New Injection in 13 Pin Land

Started by Rhcole, August 11, 2016, 05:38:56 PM

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Rhcole

Although this probably isn't big news to anybody, I have noted a decline in 13 pin products, such as Carvin/Kiesel dropping a few models, the loss of the Fender/Roland alliance and, most importantly, nothing new on the 13 pin front from Roland in over two years. That's a long time in techno-land.

The products that are out are good; GR-55 still sells and people love it. GP-10 has its place, especially for tuned guitars. If only the SY-300 ALSO had a 13 pin input along with 1/4".
But, it's not feeling like anybody is really gearing up to blow our minds with something amazing anytime soon.

Whaddya' think?  ::)

gumtown

#1
I think Roland need to re-design the whole 13 pin concept, make it digital from the source, and invent a new plug/socket system where the guitar only has a regular  guitar 1/4" jack which can serve as a normal guitar out,
or if it senses a voltage present on the cable, switches mode to a hybrid system of power and data on the same cable.

Same with the GK/VG/GR unit, if it also has just a 1/4" jack input which works in hybrid mode if it senses the presence of a GK fitted guitar,
if not, then works a s a regular mono high impedance guitar input.

The Hybrid system being similar to that of the old TV antenna mast-head amplifier unit, which has HP/LP filters.
A D.C. supply voltage is sent up the cable (5~12v) and routed through the low pass filter, and the R.F. modulated digital data is sent back down the cable via the high pass filter, allowing D.C voltage and digital data to co-exist in the same regular guitar cable/jack.

This would totally eliminate the need for 13 pin cables, and the regular everyday guitarist would be able to relate better to a normal guitar cable connecting the magic guitar pickups to the magic box of sounds.

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

vanceg

I'd agree that another format is a great idea.  Gibson tried.  Ethercon was actually not a bad connector.
But, why wait for Roland - SOMEone should do it, and, granted, it makes the most sense to have a company that has a lot of hex/single string processing systems do it... that company would have the most at stake. 
Remember - Antares came out with the ATG system recently.  It's not ALL roland.



Quote from: gumtown on August 11, 2016, 06:05:15 PM
I think Roland need to re-design the whole 13 pin concept, make it digital from the source, and invent a new plug/socket system where the guitar only has a regular  guitar 1/4" jack which can serve as a normal guitar out,
or if it senses a voltage present on the cable, switches mode to a hybrid system of power and data on the same cable.

Same with the GK/VG/GR unit, if it also has just a 1/4" jack input which works in hybrid mode if it senses the presence of a GK fitted guitar,
if not, then works a s a regular mono high impedance guitar input.

The Hybrid system being similar to that of the old TV antenna mast-head amplifier unit, which has HP/LP filters.
A D.C. supply voltage is sent up the cable (5~12v) and routed through the low pass filter, and the R.F. modulated digital data is sent back down the cable via the high pass filter, allowing D.C voltage and digital data to co-exist in the same regular guitar cable/jack.

This would totally eliminate the need for 13 pin cables, and the regular everyday guitarist would be able to relate better to a normal guitar cable connecting the magic guitar pickups to the magic box of sounds.

Now_And_Then

 As someone who has been using 13-pin stuff for a long time, and who feels that it has no future - whatever hopes it had being squandered by stupid marketing decisions, I would be *extremely* hesitant about investing in any new technology...

chrish


shawnb

If looking for something different, I really enjoy my 6Appeal, which I've been playing a lot recently.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=179.0

http://www.spicetone.com/




Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

alexmcginness

Quote from: chrish on August 12, 2016, 07:44:35 AM
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

  Yup. Theres things Id like to see like positional external FX loops and another rotary control on the GK wart but all in all Im with guys like Bill Ruppert. Theres so much untapped potential in the VG-99 that Im content with it and my GR-55 and my GP-10 that if nothing new comes along in the near or not so near future... so what. Ive got 4 99s that I should be good until the next big VG product comes along. Im still using the same 99 I bought in 2007, for roadwork. Its been battered a bit but still does the job better than anything else Ive got. The 55 and the GP 10 have anomolies which negates them for live playing for me. Others use them live with no problems.

      If it works for ya and it aint broke.....
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: gumtown on August 11, 2016, 06:05:15 PM
I think Roland need to re-design the whole 13 pin concept, make it digital from the source, and invent a new plug/socket system where the guitar only has a regular  guitar 1/4" jack which can serve as a normal guitar out,
or if it senses a voltage present on the cable, switches mode to a hybrid system of power and data on the same cable.

Same with the GK/VG/GR unit, if it also has just a 1/4" jack input which works in hybrid mode if it senses the presence of a GK fitted guitar,
if not, then works a s a regular mono high impedance guitar input.

The Hybrid system being similar to that of the old TV antenna mast-head amplifier unit, which has HP/LP filters.
A D.C. supply voltage is sent up the cable (5~12v) and routed through the low pass filter, and the R.F. modulated digital data is sent back down the cable via the high pass filter, allowing D.C voltage and digital data to co-exist in the same regular guitar cable/jack.

This would totally eliminate the need for 13 pin cables, and the regular everyday guitarist would be able to relate better to a normal guitar cable connecting the magic guitar pickups to the magic box of sounds.

I don't feel we need to mess with the form factor; having the analog signal available in 13-pin format is a strength in my mind, not a weakness.  Going digital is not the answer as far as I'm concerned.

The customer profile for "regular" and "13-pin" guitars is simply different.  The former appeals to lower tech-savvy guitarist, while the latter are more into advanced technologies.  There will likely be a need for making the 13-pin synth technology more user friendly, as well as innovative new voicings.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

gumtown

I understand that existing 13 pin GK users will not want a form-factor change,
but the point is aimed more for the 'general masses' of guitar players who shy away from anything but a normal guitar jack/cable.
Quotethe regular everyday guitarist would be able to relate better to a normal guitar cable connecting the magic guitar pickups to the magic box of sounds.

If a new design incorporated the existing 13 pin GK inputs, but also a digital input for a new "GK-4D" pickup, which is just moving the A/D conversion from the box to the guitar.
Even a TRS type guitar jack, where the normal analog pickup could remain analog in the tip connection, while the ring connection carries power and A/D hex data.

I think this would bring more appeal to those (edit: don't want to offend anyone) who shun the fragile 13 pin GK concept but would like hex processing,
or..
maybe I am a little disgruntled with the GK cables and connectors of lately, which are giving me some grief for live use.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

chrish

#9
Let them shy away i say.  If people want the magic box, they'll find it. If not, we care because why?

whippinpost91850

I couldn't agree more. After 30 yrs of 24/13 pin I'm a little tired of it. Seems like the technology hasn't progressed to guitars in a long, long time

alexmcginness

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on August 13, 2016, 07:35:17 AM
I couldn't agree more. After 30 yrs of 24/13 pin I'm a little tired of it. Seems like the technology hasn't progressed to guitars in a long, long time

   I wonder if all those folk that own say a Sunburst 1959 Les Paul Standard feel the same way?
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

whippinpost91850

I think that may be mixing apples and oranges, but am not really sure what you are asking/saying
But I doubt the guy with the 59 Les Paul is going to install a 13 pin on it

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: gumtown on August 12, 2016, 04:16:49 PM
I understand that existing 13 pin GK users will not want a form-factor change,
but the point is aimed more for the 'general masses' of guitar players who shy away from anything but a normal guitar jack/cable.
If a new design incorporated the existing 13 pin GK inputs, but also a digital input for a new "GK-4D" pickup, which is just moving the A/D conversion from the box to the guitar.
Even a TRS type guitar jack, where the normal analog pickup could remain analog in the tip connection, while the ring connection carries power and A/D hex data.

I think this would bring more appeal to those (edit: don't want to offend anyone) who shun the fragile 13 pin GK concept but would like hex processing,
or..
maybe I am a little disgruntled with the GK cables and connectors of lately, which are giving me some grief for live use.

I totally agree on the connectors being fragile and less than road-worthy.  I've been searching for a good MIL-spec replacement for a while now.  Have you tried CodeSmart's or Gittler cables?
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

#14
I took that post on the '59 les paul to mean that the tone of a '59 les paul is so much desired that  companies spend many dollars to put it into a digital model box that many people spend many dollars to purchase. So an old guitar is still the gold standard no matter how much wizz bang boo vodoo the magic boxes try to emulate.

The last time i saw demola play, he wasn't having any trouble with the 13 pin cord.

GuitarBuilder

Gibson has constantly tinkered with the Les Paul, including wild forays into electronically-enhanced guitars.  None have really stuck as a replacement for the '59.  It just shows that a great design can easily last through the ages.

Owners of '59 LPs instead try out lots of different amplifiers and effects; that's where the innovation continues for them.

I feel the analogy in the 13-pin world is the same: the guitar itself should remain a simple design.  The innovation needs to come from the synth/amplifier end.  While I own several, including GR-55, GP-10 and VG-99, I think the choices are too limited (perceived as stagnant to some) or perhaps not user-friendly enough for the masses.  Even the GP-10 may be too daunting for some.

Why not have more 13-pin pedals like the 6APPEAL?

I also like the approach TC Electronic took with the toneprint pedal series; downloading a preset via an app on your iPhone to the pedal is killer compared to having to use a computer-based editor through USB.  That's the kind of innovation I'd like to see in the 13-pin world.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

whippinpost91850

I have had little if any trouble with my 13 pin cables, but the average guitar player will not be botherd

thebrushwithin

QuoteI totally agree on the connectors being fragile and less than road-worthy.  I've been searching for a good MIL-spec replacement for a while now.  Have you tried CodeSmart's or Gittler cables?

The best 13 pin cable, for me has been the Gittler, right angle. This is the longest stretch of time, without any issues, over a year in fact. And I gig quite a bit.

chrish

#18
It doesn't bother me that the masses don't understand what a 13 pin cable does. But yea, let's put a 1/4 inch trs digital gk in on some new pedals and watch the confusion as the masses plug in regular 1/4'' guitar cables. :-)
When 13 pin wireless happens, any perceived fragile cord issues will go away.

alexmcginness

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on August 13, 2016, 10:08:20 AM
I have had little if any trouble with my 13 pin cables, but the average guitar player will not be botherd

Ditto. The only issue so far was with the original 13 pin cable that came with the VG-99 I bought in 2007. Two years ago its became so noisy that no amount of Deoxit could save it so I bought a new one! Ive yet to have to use the spare I carry with me. ( who does a gig without a spare GK cable? ) You plug the cable into your guitar and fold it up back thru the strap so that any tug on the cable puts no strain on the connector and then you build a guard that goes over the spot where the GK cable plugs into any 13 pin floor unit like the VG 88 the Gr-55 and the GP 10 so no one can inadvertantly step on the connector and break it. ( you all have made something like that right??? ) And there ya go. Bobs your uncle. Completely safe 13 pin guitaring with backup cable.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Majiken

I come from the automobile industry, and from my actual experience there is no real standard for 13-pin jacks or plugs for the type of musical applications we are talking about- the variances we encounter on the market are so wide that tolerance stackup leading to failure (refer to the grounding issue alone) is entirely possible.  In the auto industry, this design would not have made it past the prototype stage, period. But, we are a niche market abound with DIY-savvy folks who fix it themselves and get on with it.

I'm still testing some things, including waiting on a Synth-Linx jack from Gumbo/Peter, and I will report my results when they are available. When I perform, the last thing I need is to worry about if (for example) my A- string is going to drop out-I need to make my audience happy. The design CAN work, there just needs to be a market-wide tightening of tolerances and specs for both plugs and jacks. Let it cost 100% more, just work EVERY TIME!  Will it happen? I am not holding my breath... and yes, I did get a Gittler cable and it is brilliant (surely because of proper QC with tight specs and superior materials). Just happens that it cost me around 130 USD to my doorstep, which is essentially ridiculous (more power to them, I know they have to cover R&D and investments over a low volume).

Things will change a lot, I see impulse responses and wireless putting 13-pin even farther on the back shelf than it is today.  But, I live today, 13-pin is what I have, and I'll make the most of it.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

rolandvg99

#21
I'm hoping for a solution in the ways Gumtown suggest. AD at the guitar opens a whole new level of possibilities without degrading the signal. It could also carry bi-directional audio and control signals for IEM solutions and on-board MIDI-like control. Dante/AVB solutions could network the whole audio/control chain needing only network switches for setting up a multi track system and so on.

Since 1999 I've busted only one GK cable and that is the one I bought with my GI-10. Still haven't stepped on a connector and broken one. The wrecked cable got squashed under a de-rubberised leg of a drummer's throne.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

pasha811

#22
Sorry for the question but I'm not as tech savvy as most of you are..
Ok for Gumtown's solution but that would require an hexa pickup in any case, right?
Many friends of mine love the VG99 sounds I can make but they are worried about GK3 mounting.
They look at me in horror when they see my Strat Plus (32 yo) with the GK2A mounted on even if I have used no screws
and all can be easily restored to original.
I think that it's not the 13pin cable scaring Guitarists, it's more the mounting of a GK Hexa that stops them.
That's why recently I have observed that SY300 is selling (and it's replaced on the shelves) more than GP10 (last sale
in December, restock only if ordered).
I dream a miniaturization of the whole system guitar wise, with thinner hexa PU and super integrated circuitry with a smaller foot print
that can be added internally to any guitar without wood work and in this case I welcome Gumtown idea of a 'special' 1/4 Jack that carries both audio and data, using the current routings in all guitars. 

Edit : However I think the circuitry has to be powered.. so a battery is needed and this breaks my dream.. unless the 1/4 cable can bring power from the box to the instrument.

Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

DreamTheory

Quote from: pasha811 on August 13, 2016, 01:51:32 PM

I think that it's not the 13pin cable scaring Guitarists, it's more the mounting of a GK Hexa that stops them.

I have seen many really good players that balk at this. how silly! it is easy as a set up. but they balk at set ups too!

Gumtown's idea of more traditional connectors is spot on.

I do not know about technology much, so I cannot really look down on guitarists that are intimidated by a GK mount.  but what about fiber-optics? or blue tooth/ wireless? I would be amazed if this has been considered by the geniuses that invent this stuff, so I assume it is not cost effective?
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

mooncaine

Wireless seems promising.

Just paring this whole thing down to one cable, a reliable simple cable you can fix or replace easily, is enough.

Fiber optics looks like a lot of extra parts and expense to get the same job done, but merely marginally better than metal cable, so no point there. You still have a weird cable you can't fix or easily find replacements for.