SY-300 - External MIDI control

Started by cellomangler, July 28, 2015, 03:11:41 PM

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cellomangler

So I fired up my vintage Evolution uc33e MIDI controller, hooked it up via MIDI to my SY-300 and got some control happening.  This is utilizing the 6 available system or patch related MIDI controller assigns.   It works great.  But there is only 6.
It's been awhile since I've waded into sysex, hexadecimal and otherwise hard core MIDI stuff, so can someone shed some light for me?
Should we be able to assign more external controllers to the SY-300 using system exclusive or other protocols?  I would think yes, since that is basically what the Tone Studio editor is doing.
Has anybody attempted setting up advanced external control and would you have time to illuminate the procedure a bit?
Thanks..

gumtown

Yes the SY-300 can have any parameter controlled by sysx.

Depends on what you want to do, there is the SY-300 midi implementation document available here.
http://www.bossus.com/support/by_product/sy-300/owners_manuals/350641

Here is an example, OSC 1 LFO rate of 30
F0 41 10 00 00 00 13 12 20 00 20 19 1E 09 F7
and OSC1 LFO Rate of 80
F0 41 10 00 00 00 13 12 20 00 20 19 50 57 F7

to break it down..

F0 = sysx message start
41 = Roland/Boss manufacturer
10 = Device unit ID (1~32)
00 00 00 13 = SY-300 unique identifier
12 = data change send
20 = SY-300 temporary address (current patch scratch pad memory)
00 20 19 = OSC1 LFO1 address
50 = value sent (hex50 = 80 decimal)
57 = checksum
F7 = end of sysx message

You can connect to the Tone Studio app and also connect a midi reader (I use Bome's Send SX) to read the verbose sysx data sent back from the SY-300 when tweaking each parameter.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

cellomangler

#2
Quote from: gumtown on July 28, 2015, 03:34:40 PM
You can connect to the Tone Studio app and also connect a midi reader (I use Bome's Send SX) to read the verbose sysx data sent back from the SY-300 when tweaking each parameter.
Thanks for the quick help.  Yes... that last bit of info is something that I was hoping to learn about.  I've looked through the MIDI implementation pdf and it's a bit daunting but I do understand the basic premise - and your example helps a lot.
I just read in my uc33 docs that it does not do custom sysex, so I'll have to look into another compact controller for that.
I want to have some compact and quick external control while at a performance without requiring my laptop and 6 controllers are just not enough.
But if I can grab the sysex data from the Tone Studio editor and enter that into a hardware controller's interface, I should be able to swing this.

cellomangler

#3
BTW...  any opinion on the Beheringer B-CONTROL ROTARY BCR2000 ?
I understand it does sysex and has some decent editing software... plus some 3rd party.

Elantric

QuoteBTW...  any opinion on the Beheringer B-CONTROL ROTARY BCR2000 ?

Its OK - a bit bulky, and the Rotary LED status indicators require specific bi-directional MIDI communication which is not natively  supported by BCR2000

Today i get one way MIDI Control to my gear using a $99 Arturia Beatstep as a 16 knob MIDI CC# controller
http://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid-synths/beatstep


review
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/02/inside-beatstep-99-step-sequencer-controller-looks-compact-versatile-qa-videos/

cellomangler

#5
Quote from: Elantric on July 28, 2015, 04:28:06 PM
Its OK - a bit bulky, and the Rotary LED status indicators require specific bi-directional MIDI communication which is not natively  supported by BCR2000

Is that a major problem, the status indicators ?
The Arturia looks very capable, but I'd like to have twice as many knobs and I don't need another sequencer.

Wish I could figure out a good use for this old Peavey MIDI Manager I have that lets
you program anything hexadecimal.  It takes program change input and outputs programmable
hex chains.   I doubt it can be used to transmit a swept range of sysex.

cellomangler

My first disgruntlement with the SY-300:  only 6 assignable MIDI controllers.
Sure.... you can do more with sysex.... but that's a whole lot more complicated than using the built-in settings for the 6 MIDI controller assignments.
Let's push for more in an OS update !  How about 36 ?    ... 24 at a minimum.

gumtown

I guess they assumed the average guitar player only has two hands, which will be busy playing guitar.  ;D
36 assignable knobs for remote control would be a lot for the average midi ignorant player,
and if you are midi serious, sysx for direct control would be less hassle, rather than doing 36 Assigns setup per patch.

That could be an opinion looked at from one perspective..
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

cellomangler

#8
Quote from: gumtown on July 29, 2015, 01:56:28 PM
I guess they assumed the average guitar player only has two hands, which will be busy playing guitar.  ;D
36 assignable knobs for remote control would be a lot for the average midi ignorant player,
and if you are midi serious, sysx for direct control would be less hassle, rather than doing 36 Assigns setup per patch.

That could be an opinion looked at from one perspective..
I see what you mean.  And I can do a lot on a patch basis with the 6 controllers and the 4 assignable top knobs.
I've already begun using the SY in this weekly restaurant acoustic gig.  It's all instrumental jazzy guitar stuff.  I have a Baggs magnetic pickup on my acoustic that I run into the SY and blend that in stereo with a Baggs Lyric.  (I also have an Acoustic Feather on the inside for running into a sub for bass and percussion effects)  But this setup is really a blast and the SY is giving me such a bigger sound at times and subtle enhancement at other times.   But I find myself wanting to tweak a patch in between songs or when I'm holding a chord, just to get "that" sound that's in my head.  If I can get the Boss Tone Studio to run on a little netbook with Win XP, then I'll try that first.  Then look at picking up that BCR2000 for full sysex control.

I don't suppose there is software out there that will take a MIDI CC input and output sysex ?  Sort of like if you could control the Tone Studio Editor with a desktop controller that output CC data and then Tone Studio would in turn, control the SY.  That way you have the best of both worlds - a standard hardware controller with lots of knobs and an easy to program sysex application.

Elantric

#9
QuoteIf I can get the Boss Tone Studio to run on a little netbook with Win XP, then I'll try that first.

It was too sluggish on my 2008 HP MINI 210 (1.8GHz Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, WinXP)

But my 2013 Acer R7 (Ebay $400) ( Win8.1, Intel i5 Quadcore, 12GB RAM, 15"  Multitouch Display @ 1920 x 1080 ) works great as a Touch screen interface  with Boss Tone Studio

Has two USB 3.0 ports and one USB 2.0 port I use for Roland/Boss/Line-6 gear!

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8917.msg64020#msg64020


QuoteI don't suppose there is software out there that will take a MIDI CC input and output sysex

CTRLR
http://ctrlr.org/
Control any MIDI enabled hardware: synthesizers, drum machines, samplers, effects. Create custom User Interfaces. Host them as VST or AU plugins in your favorite DAWs.

Bome's MIDI translator
http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator/overview/compare
http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator

CYCLING '74 MAX
https://cycling74.com/

MIDI-OX
http://www.midiox.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Mapping;action=display;num=1163486454

Additional reading

http://www.autohotkey.com/board/topic/54920-midi-inputoutput-combined-with-system-exclusive/

cellomangler

#10
Quote from: Elantric on July 29, 2015, 04:15:06 PM
It was too sluggish on my 2008 HP MINI 210 (1.8GHz Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, WinXP)

Surprised that it requires so much overhead.  Maybe it's the graphics requirements.
Thanks for all the tips.  I've heard about several of those apps.
Boss Tone Studio for iPad or Android would be cool....  not that I own either.....   :(

gumtown

Watch this space for "SY-300-Edit" a User Friendly alternative to the Tone Studio.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#12
QuoteSurprised that it requires so much overhead.  Maybe it's the graphics requirements.

No  - its because of the requirement of BTS to use that damn Adobe AIR  - Boss Tone Studio will not run without it

https://forums.adobe.com/community/air/problems


Troubleshoot AIR installation http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/403/kb403150.html
Common installation problems http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/403/kb403150.html#main_probs-windows



http://www.geekstogo.com/forum/topic/318555-super-slow-mini-netbook/

cellomangler

Quote from: Elantric on July 29, 2015, 04:15:06 PM
It was too sluggish on my 2008 HP MINI 210 (1.8GHz Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, WinXP)

You mentioned using win XP on that netbook.... but you weren't using it with the SY-300, were you?
Because I got tone studio to install on my win XP Gateway netbook, but the SY-300 driver won't install.  It does only mention win 7 & 8 in the online description.
I wanted to at least try it out on my netbook.  Adobe Air installed just fine.. along with Tone Studio...    but no driver luck.

gumtown

The SY-300 is part of the new breed which do not support windows Xp (as far as USB drivers go),
Windows 7 is now the new minimum requirement.
but you can still use a USB-Midi device adapter to the SY-300 5 pin midi ports with Win Xp.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

jshortz

Will my Rocktron Midi Xchange change patches on the SY-300?

Elantric

#16
"It was too sluggish on my 2008 HP MINI 210 (1.8GHz Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, WinXP"

Quote"You mentioned using win XP on that netbook.... but you weren't using it with the SY-300, were you?

I was trying to use Boss Tone Studio for GP-10, the GP-10 is the last Boss product to have WinXP drivers

Adobe AIR is required for All versions of Boss Tone Studio, and it was too much for my 2008 HP Mini 210, and my 2010 Dell 10" Inspiron Duo Netbook with touch screen - would not even run.
QuoteWill my Rocktron Midi Xchange change patches on the SY-300?
With a 5 pin DIN MIDI connection, Yes

jshortz

Quote from: jshortz on August 03, 2015, 06:57:51 AM
Will my Rocktron Midi Xchange change patches on the SY-300?

I assume it would connect to the SY-300 like I connect it to my GR-55.

Elantric

#18
QuoteWill my Rocktron Midi Xchange change patches on the SY-300? I assume it would connect to the SY-300 like I connect it to my GR-55.


With a 5 pin DIN MIDI connection, Yes


Learn MIDI

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2977.0

cellomangler

Using two way MIDI DIN connection with a MOTU Freeway USB/MIDI interface, I can use Tone Studio to edit my SY-300 on my venerable Gateway netbook running Win XP.  It does take several seconds to update when I make changes on either the SY or in Tone Studio, but it is usable.
- Gateway LT2021u with 1.6 GHz Atom processor and 2 MB of memory

Spider

BTW: As GP-10, SY-300 works without problem with Andorid 5 on my Nexus 7 (2013) i.e. MIDI over USB.



Elantric

QuoteAs GP-10, SY-300 works without problem with Andorid 5 on my Nexus 7 (2013) i.e. MIDI over USB.

The only hardware  / Android OS combo that seems to work  ( Doesn't work on my Galaxy Note2)   

Spider

Works on S3, Xperia Z1 too. It is interesting that app see "Boss SY-300" MIDI device.

Elantric

#23
QuoteWorks on S3, Xperia Z1 too. It is interesting that app see "Boss SY-300" MIDI device.

When it comes to access to Android 5.0 OS updates  - USA is a banana republic. The TelCo providers are the only source for non hacked Android Phones, and most providers cripple the MIDI over USB. Last October I tried an AT& T Samsung Galaxy Note4 with a USB OTG adapter and my GP-10 and got no MIDI I/O ,  nothing 

Spider

S3 tested with Cyanogenmod (Android 4.4.4), Z1 too. So not only 5.1.