Just thinking, perhaps a hex tremolo/stutter/arpeggiator box?

Started by CodeSmart, June 16, 2015, 05:08:09 PM

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CodeSmart

Just another bad idea....I think it's never done before.
Been doing time with processor controlled GK hex volume control chips.
It would be pretty easy to build a GK box with two pots and a selector knob: Rate, Depth and Pattern.

Rate: The speed.
Depth: How much the volume decline on strings turned "off".
Pattern: Tremolo ( all strings ) and then various arpeggio patterns from string 6 to 1 and back again etc.

Stuffs activated with a footswitch. Be aware all this happens before GP-10/GR-55

I wonder if it would be useful. Hm... ::) might give it a try one day.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Elantric

Sounds like  a similar feature in the  Spicetone 6Appeal


But it could be an interesting "value added" feature

http://www.spicetone.com/blogs/spicetone-2
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12104.0


* 2 LFOs (syncable; sine, triangle, pulse, saw up, saw down, random)

* Parameter Modulation (modulate any pot with LFO)

* Panning Modulation (per strings stereo panning modulation)

* Filter Modulation (auto wah-wah and rhythmic resonance)

* Syncing (synchronize tempo with DAW or MIDI device)

* Sequencer (sequenced modulations, can be tempo synced)

* Envelope (in next software releases)

* Tap Tempo

* Suitable for Bass (no low end cutoff, can mute unused channels for 4string)








Elantric

QuoteJust thinking, perhaps a stutter/arpeggiator box?

Go to 1:25 to see the GTC Sound RevPad's stutter and arpeggio function with wireless control

GTC Sound RevPad at 2016 Winter NAMM



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15080.msg107740#msg107740

stratrat

I was thinking that too recently. See the arpeggiator thread here. A hex step sequencer controlling gates would give you a lot of pattern control.

The major downside with an external box would be that it would affect all hex voices - you would not be able to mix an arped synth voice with another normal synth or modelled guitar voice while playing live. You could, however, mix arped synth or modelled voices with the direct guitar sound.

CodeSmart

Old thread, but actually I got something boiling. It sounds pretty cool and is certainly useful. Both programmable hexaphonic 'semi'-arp and separate string volume/pan modulation. As it it has two GK outs it could have 2xGK pan/modulation if someone could tell me why it's needed.

Only hardware problem right now is that I have to replace digital pots with better dedicated volume control chips with in-built zero-crossing detection to avoid pops and clicks due to discrete volume steps. Otherwise the circuit and dual rail GK power generation from a 9 supply is dead silent.

Hope to post a video soon.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

CodeSmart

I now have a modulation effect and a semi-arp effect running at the same time but want to expand to at least one more mod effect and maybe a third that modulates the overall modulation depth.

The effects are based on BPM (set via menu, MIDI or via Tap tempo footswitch)  so here's the question.

What BPM based rates do you need?

MS-3 Tremolo have all these:
0=Whole Note, 1=Dotted Half Note, 2=Triplet of Whole Note, 3=Half Note, 4=Dotted Quarter Note, 5=Triplet of Half Note, 6=Quarter Note, 7=Dotted 8th Note, 8=Triplet of Quarter Note, 9=8th Note, 10=Dotted 16th Note, 11=Triplet of 8th Note, 12=16th Note

But frankly how much of that is really needed?
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

admin

These are typical

Off, 1/1, 1/2, *1/2, 1/2T, 1/4, *1/4, 1/4T, 1/8, *1/8, 1/8T, 1/16, *1/16, 1/16T, 1/32, *1/32, 1/32T

* = dotted
T - Triplet

(Reference: Fender Mustang GTX)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Gm-PJbjpgWETWC_3hN5Mf0VN5K3n08U/view


On a GK IN > 2 Output switcher

Give me BPM based String Paning Tremolo  -  I want Johnny Marr "How soon is now " and others when mated with multiple GK processors 

And give me PAN control per each string per preset

sixeight

I have been thinking about MIDI effects for the VController project. Looking at arpeggiated cc messages which are tempo synced. Still at the idea stage.

Pan control has to be done through midi messages.

I hope to develop some new stuff this summer.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: CodeSmart on June 10, 2020, 02:01:04 PM
Old thread, but actually I got something boiling. It sounds pretty cool and is certainly useful. Both programmable hexaphonic 'semi'-arp and separate string volume/pan modulation. As it it has two GK outs it could have 2xGK pan/modulation if someone could tell me why it's needed.

Only hardware problem right now is that I have to replace digital pots with better dedicated volume control chips with in-built zero-crossing detection to avoid pops and clicks due to discrete volume steps. Otherwise the circuit and dual rail GK power generation from a 9 supply is dead silent.

Hope to post a video soon.

Is the audio path analog or digital?
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

CodeSmart

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on June 15, 2020, 08:27:43 AM
Is the audio path analog or digital?
Audio path is analog with 14 digitally controlled amp stages (there's two GK Out) each stage with 256 discrete steps.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

CodeSmart


Q: Do you mean a fixed pan or a modulated pan between two GK... or both? Also note that you may (with a single GK) pan GP-10 Strings in stereo and with my added panning between strings the stuff moves around in your head nicely. I just heard it this morning.

But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

CodeSmart

This is the A/B (A+B) GK switcher and input GK selector mode:


And this is the Modulation Patch mode (switch mode by simul. stepping on two footswitches):


After last nights contemplating this will be the base for continued coding:
(4 Modulation Engines and 2 Arpeggiator Engines / Patch + possibility for individual string panning per GK)

Each patch (1-99) consists of the following settings:
==============================================================================
Name       - Name of patch (max 16 chars)
BPMBase  - Basic rate of patch in BPM (default 100, can be controlled by MIDI IN or Tap Tempo footswitch)

PatchEn    - 0=Off, 1=The complete patch is enabled

GKVol      - [0..nGK][0..6];    // Patch Base GK and PU volume (as per Elantric request)


Each patch have up to four(4) modulation engines.
==============================================================================
VOLUME MODULATION EFFECT
Settings of each modulation effect:
==============================================================================
Enable - Modulation On/Off: 0=Off, 1=On

Target - Modulation strings, guitar pup and GK 1-4 selection bits
         Bits:
               D0 = STR1 effected
               D1 = STR2 effected
               D2 = STR3 effected
               D3 = STR4 effected
               D4 = STR5 effected
               D5 = STR6 effected
               D6 = GTR (regular pickup) effected
               D7 = GK Bit 0
               D8 = GK Bit 1
               D9-D15 Not used

TargetRev - Reversed Modulation strings, guitar pup and GK 1-4 selection bits
         Bits:
               D0 = STR1 effected
               D1 = STR2 effected
               D2 = STR3 effected
               D3 = STR4 effected
               D4 = STR5 effected
               D5 = STR6 effected
               D6 = GTR  effected
               D7 = GK Bit 0
               D8 = GK Bit 1
               D9-D15 Not used

            ('reversed modulation' strings will by same amount increase volume as
             targets are decreasing volume in order to achieve a PAN effect.
             The GK bits will allow a PAN effect between different GK outputs).

WaveShape - Modulation pos. starting waveshape: 0=SQR, 1=TRIANGLE,2=SINE,3=SAW (default 1)
WaveInvert- Inverted mod. waveshape 0=No, 1=Yes  (default 0)

Destination - 0=Volume,
              1=Overall Patch Depth,
              2=Depth of Mod1
              3=Depth of Mod2
              4=Depth of Mod3
              5=Depth of Mod4 (default 0=Volume)

BPMDeriv   - 0=1/1    Whole Note
             1=*1/2   Dotted Half Note
             2=1/1T   Triplet of Whole Note
             3=1/2    Half Note
             4=*1/4   Dotted Quarter Note
             5=1/2T   Triplet of Half Note
             6=1/4    Quarter Note
             7=*1/8   Dotted 8th Note
             8=1/4T   Triplet of Quarter Note
             9=1/8    8th Note
             10=*1/16 Dotted 16th Note
             11=1/8T  Triplet of 8th Note
             12=1/16  16th Note
             13=*1/32 Dotted 32th Note
             14=1/16T Triplet of 16th Note
             15=1/32  32th Note
             (default 6 = Quarter note)

Depth      - Effect depth of modulation (0-100, where 100 means mute)
==============================================================================

Each patch has two (2) Semi-Arpeggiator effects
==============================================================================
SEMI-ARPEGGIATOR EFFECT - PROGRAMMABLE SEQUENCIAL STEPS OF TURNING INDIVIDUAL STRINGS OR PICKUPS ON/OFF
Settings of each Semi-Arpeggiator effect:
==============================================================================
Enable     - Effect on/off: 0=Off, 1=On
GKTarget   - 0=GK1, 1=GK2, 2=GK1+GK2
Depth      - Arpeggiator volume depth: 0-100
               
Steps      - Number of arpegiator steps (max 32)

ArpStep(32)- Bits:
               D0 = STR1 effected (0=off, 1=on)
               D1 = STR2 effected (0=off, 1=on)
               D2 = STR3 effected (0=off, 1=on)
               D3 = STR4 effected (0=off, 1=on)
               D4 = STR5 effected (0=off, 1=on)
               D5 = STR6 effected (0=off, 1=on)
               D6 = GTR (regular pickup)  effected (0=off, 1=on)

BPMDeriv   - 0=1/1   Whole Note
             1=1/2   Half Note
             2=1/4   Quarter Note
             3=1/8   8th Note
             4=1/16  16th Note
             5=1/32  32th Note
             (default 6 = Quarter note)
   
Depth      - Effect depth of arpeggiator (0-100, where 100 means mute)
Location   - 0=After Modulation effects, 1=Before Modulation effects


So friends... now I need to do some more coding plus making another PCB round with presumably better and more silent (removing zipper noise) ways of controlling the string volumes. I hope to be back in a few weeks.

Cheers
Robert

But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

chrish

A hex compressor would be nice to be able to add to the SY1000 input via your 13pin out,  and looks like you need another beer. :)

CodeSmart

Quote from: chrish on June 16, 2020, 12:37:51 PM
...and looks like you need another beer. :)
Yeah, please note that patch '01 Sucking Wind' is in the OFF state, meaning there's more to get from the basement fridge.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

CodeSmart

Yup, sending in another prototype board. This time with new volume control circuits. Hopefully they will operate without 'zipper' noise as stated.
Each iteration I do is at least $200 with components and prototype board + about 7-10 hours manual SMD soldering and testing.

So what is this board doing?

It has two GK inputs allowing you to have two GK guitars to choose from plus one regular input.
This input may be a regular guitar or the regular pickup guitar cable separate from the GK cable using a two-cable method.

It has two GK outputs, for my personal thinking it will go to my GR-55 and my (hopefully soon to possess) SY-1000.

It has a 9V DC input to generate its own +/-7V GK voltages with enough extremely silent power for two GK guitars.
(Actually these rather expensive regulator chips can give up to 1 Amps of ultra low noise -7V and +7V)
So, this thing will not draw any current from your synths (possibly you could use it to power modified FTP warts).

The embedded volume ships allow extreme gain or damping i precise part-dB steps.

The thing have three MIDI connectors.
One MIDI-IN if you which to control things by MIDI.
Two MIDI-OUT to control the GK Set of GR-55 or SY-1000 (or VG-99), meaning when you switch guitar input, your synth stuff will also change the GK Settings. That is cool.
If GP-10 a MIDX-20 will be needed in between.
The reason I did not include a MIDI USB Host this time is because it's tricky and expensive to tame analog/digital ground loops.

The unit will have four on-board foot switches and a 2x16 LCD Display.

It has two Expression jacks for connecting either EV-5 or dual FS. These may control the GK volume, S1/S2 or the speed or depth of modulation patches.

It has a Mini-USB so it will be programmable and Software updateable from a PC using a USB cable.

It has an expansion connector for future piggy-pack boards. One that works immediately is the GKPX-14 Subsonic Filter board.

From the beginning this was a multi-guitar/multi GK Synth project, but the more I play with the ability to be able to modulate string volumes it appear it is a REALLY interesting device.

With ability to freely control the volume of all hex strings and regular pickup on both GK out, a completely new soundscape opens up.
Old dull patches in the GR-55 or GP-10 start to live and pulsate. With several modulators and arpeggiators running, things start to sound really different.

And best of all, everything is just based on your playing and it's completely analog.
It just control the volume and volume modulation depth between strings or GK

Patch base BPM is controlled by Tap tempo foot switch or MIDI.

I now hold my thumbs for the next board iteration.

But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

admin

Quote from: CodeSmart on June 15, 2020, 12:39:42 PM
Q: Do you mean a fixed pan or a modulated pan between two GK... or both?


I want both - with tap tempo - and sync to external MIDI CLOCK  for modulated

And above all , be able to be controlled by a Master Show Controller - make use of that MIDI INPUT JACK 

vanceg

There is a VG-99 algorithem that I wrote and posted here that turns off each string in a pattern, creating a LITTLE bit of this type of effect.
I've also got a much better one brewing on the H9000... but I'm using an external sequencer to control the ON/OFF of each string.   
It's a really compelling effect, especially if you have a good way to sutain the incoming signal (the VG-99 patch uses the Hold feature whereas my current guitars use the sutainer built into the instrument.

I'd love to see a stand alone hex effect box that did this exclusively. 

Also, you can do a good bit of this with the SixAppeal pedal as mentioned earlier in the thread.

CodeSmart

Boss BPM curiosities:

Skipping any musical theory studies/readings I used a Boss MS-3 at 100BPM and an oscilloscope and brute-force-verified the findings showed below.

For a given periodic Boss Effect (tremolo, slicer delay etc.), the repeating effect cycle time in milliseconds can be calculated using this formula:

   effect_cycle_ms = factor * BPM/1000  [ms]

where:
   BPM - Actual device BPM rate
   factor - according to the table below:


NameFactor
Whole note24000
Dotted half note18000
Triplet of whole note16000
Half note12000
Dotted quarter note9000
Triplet of half note8000
Quarter note6000
Dotted 8'th note4500
Triplet of quarter note4000
8'th Note3000
Dotted 16'th note2250
Triplet of 8'th note2000
16'th note1500
Dotted 32'th note1125
Triplet of 16'th note1000
32'th note750

Note: The highest (16'th and above) will probably not be very accurate unless a hardware timer with microsecond resolution is used.
It is probably this fact that make Boss devices go no further than 16'th note (whereas Fender devices goes to 32'th note)
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

shawnb

Quote from: admin on June 29, 2020, 12:05:12 PM
I want both - with tap tempo - and sync to external MIDI CLOCK  for modulated

Agreed.

Another point I'm not sure has been discussed above...  What TYPE of arpeggiator?  Note- or chord- driven?

I never heard a proper name for this distinction, but I've seen arpeggiators work one of two ways:
- Given an input note, play an arpeggio based on preset intervals from that note; the arpeggio definition references diatonic intervals & timings
- Given an input chord, play an arpeggio based on the notes within the played chord; the arpeggio definition references input note #s and timings

The Blofeld does the latter, chord-driven version, and it is far more useful, IMO.  I normally stay away from arpeggiators because they are too repetitive & bland...  But I actually use the arpeggiator on the Blofeld - it offers a much broader tonal palette (i.e., whatever you give it...). 

Also, diatonic vs chromatic math would be a nice option.

Freeze/hold.

Thinking out loud here, of course!   ;D
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

CodeSmart

Quote from: shawnb on June 30, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Agreed.

Another point I'm not sure has been discussed above...  What TYPE of arpeggiator?  Note- or chord- driven?

I never heard a proper name for this distinction, but I've seen arpeggiators work one of two ways:
- Given an input note, play an arpeggio based on preset intervals from that note; the arpeggio definition references diatonic intervals & timings
- Given an input chord, play an arpeggio based on the notes within the played chord; the arpeggio definition references input note #s and timings

The Blofeld does the latter, chord-driven version, and it is far more useful, IMO.  I normally stay away from arpeggiators because they are too repetitive & bland...  But I actually use the arpeggiator on the Blofeld - it offers a much broader tonal palette (i.e., whatever you give it...). 

Also, diatonic vs chromatic math would be a nice option.

Freeze/hold.

Thinking out loud here, of course!   ;D

In my case there's no such thing going on. What I'm doing is simply modifying separate string volumes following a user defined sequence/pattern and speed.

There's no sound produced other than what comes from the guitar. The effect goes especially good with virtual hex sounds like 12-string, GR-300 synth sounds etc.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Brak(E)man

Quote from: CodeSmart on July 01, 2020, 04:28:08 AM
In my case there's no such thing going on. What I'm doing is simply modifying separate string volumes following a user defined sequence/pattern and speed.

There's no sound produced other than what comes from the guitar. The effect goes especially good with virtual hex sounds like 12-string, GR-300 synth sounds etc.

Is it doable with a tone ditto with the same principle?
I've experimented with reguitar and the gp-10 using different tones like a stepfilter
and it makes very interesting.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

CodeSmart

Quote from: Brak(E)man on July 01, 2020, 04:42:52 AM
Is it doable with a tone ditto with the same principle?
Not 100% sure what you mean.
If the next board is good enough volume-control wise and when I get further with the firmware, you may borrow a prototype to play with for intellectual feedback ;)
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Brak(E)man

Quote from: CodeSmart on July 01, 2020, 08:08:04 AM
Not 100% sure what you mean.
If the next board is good enough volume-control wise and when I get further with the firmware, you may borrow a prototype to play with for intellectual feedback ;)
I mean instead of affecting the volume use the same or different  sequence/pattern for the tone.
Modulate individual string tones as well as individual string volumes.

I'm not a tech guy so...
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

CodeSmart

Quote from: Brak(E)man on July 01, 2020, 08:16:47 AM
I mean instead of affecting the volume use the same or different  sequence/pattern for the tone.
Modulate individual string tones as well as individual string volumes.

I'm not a tech guy so...

Let's start with this, what you are suggesting is much more complicated.
Either it would need some expensive chips (one per string or at least 3 if stereo chips) with programmable bandpass filter or it would need a complete DSP section.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Brak(E)man

Quote from: CodeSmart on July 01, 2020, 08:08:04 AM
Not 100% sure what you mean.
If the next board is good enough volume-control wise and when I get further with the firmware, you may borrow a prototype to play with for intellectual feedback ;)


Yes , please , I'm not sure about intellectual though but feedback, sure..  :-\

Quote from: CodeSmart on July 02, 2020, 12:55:32 AM
Let's start with this, what you are suggesting is much more complicated.
Either it would need some expensive chips (one per string or at least 3 if stereo chips) with programmable bandpass filter or it would need a complete DSP section.



Being both old and old school I was thinking in terms of volume and tone pots analog style.
Of course I understand that's not how you're doing it , but that's as far as my knowledge reaches ... sorry
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch