GP-10 - DSP Alt Tune Anomalies

Started by djidoe, February 25, 2015, 12:27:51 PM

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Brak(E)man

Thanx for the help
I'm going to sit down again and
try different settings with 4 guitars
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Quote from: Brak(E)man on February 15, 2017, 01:25:14 PM
Thanx for the help
I'm going to sit down again and
try different settings with 4 guitars

Good luck!
I'll go on with the GK2A one in the coming days if this cold and flu leaves me alone.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

Thanx
And have fun with reverse Nashville
And The forths and fifths tunings are great for guitar pads
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

What turnings would you use if you wanted to play synth harmonics on the 5,7 and 12th frets?

pasha811

Quote from: Brak(E)man on February 15, 2017, 01:45:37 PM
Thanx
And have fun with reverse Nashville
And The forths and fifths tunings are great for guitar pads

Reverse Nashville it's pure imagination to me. I didn't know about that.
I knew about Frank Gambale's some of Joni Mitchell's but this... AMAZING!
My VG99 has to have one!

Let me know if I can help in any way.
I recall something very strange yesterday when I was testing your tunings.
My wife was in the other room (she has absolute musical hearing... she's better than a Boss Tuner  ;D
and when I was playing first 1 step down (as a startup patch) she shouted 'Stop this it's terrible!' Then I pump up the volume in my mixer and the out of tune went away. Interestingly enough that happened only when I played high E after the 12th fret. How can a human could hear the natural sound of the unplugged guitar from another room (1 wall in the middle) it's beyond me... so I thought.. what if it was coming from the speakers? In that case it means that the DSP has to 'stabilize' a little before running ok. That's why I put my headphones on and recorded the session for you. To be sure of what I heard. Usually when the tuning it's somewhat in harmony with the standard EADGBE the latter is 'covered' and unheard. However if I try 'odd' tunings like -1 or -2 that is heard along the natural unplugged sound at higher pitch (remember, no Guitar to GK IN Cable). It might be that now I'm all psycho acoustic about that because my brain is constantly looking for something weird, or my hearing loss above 4K it's somewhat responsible. I do not know but I though about this tonight and just wanted to share. My investigation will continue.

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

aliensporebomb

Oh I bet I know what's happening there - if you use the DSP to pitch your guitar and she is somehow hearing the acoustical ringing of the standard EADGBE and you're using some kind of crazy tuning the resulting "disharmony" can be quite strange indeed. 

Some people are just really sensitive to dissonance.  And even though she was on the other side of a wall if she heard the the attack of the acoustic strings it probably sounded like alien harmonies.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Brak(E)man

Guitar string transients are quite loud even not amplified.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Thanks ASB and Brak(E)man. So we can rule out the possibility that that a dis-functional routing to speaker happens even in absence of Guitar to GK3 IN Cable.
And.. yes .. it's Aliens!  :P 
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

Quote from: pasha811 on February 16, 2017, 06:55:51 AM
Thanks ASB and Brak(E)man. So we can rule out the possibility that that a dis-functional routing to speaker happens even in absence of Guitar to GK3 IN Cable.
And.. yes .. it's Aliens!  :P

The hex pup could "leak" through the dsp but I doubt it.
I've never experienced it when recorded only when played.

But there's something that's not ok with the GPs Alien tune that's for sure.
I wonder what they changed from the VG series
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

Quote from: chrish on February 15, 2017, 03:11:56 PM
What turnings would you use if you wanted to play synth harmonics on the 5,7 and 12th frets?
I'd use 12 string in forths or fifths up ,
on vg99 the beaut is that you can switch between the two in the same patch,
I haven't found a good way on GP , maybe I haven't tried enough
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

#160
Nice, i hadn't thought of using the a/b channels on the vg99 in that way.

I had tried that technique where you finger a chord or scale and place your right hand index finger above the harmonic octave and pick the string with the right thumb. 

That technique gets complex with pitch to midi conversions, but works on the vg's and sy just fine, but there's nothing like just placing bar on all the strings and plucking away.

I sometimes imagine that the fret board is one of those mallet and string wind chimes
and the wind is randomly playing the harmonics.

After reading mitch goodrich's (?) book on concept improv, it's fun to think that way.

i think i remember reading that the vg99 will send the midi note values of what ever the channel A pitch shift is set too.

i don't know if the gp10 does that as i'm still not sure i'm going to buy one.

I also like to hit that octave harmonic with a felt mallet with a synth tone going, and sometimes the guitar body and just open strings. 

Brak(E)man

Quote from: chrish on February 16, 2017, 01:52:45 PM
Nice, i hadn't thought of using the a/b channels on the vg99 in that way.

I had tried that technique where you finger a chord or scale and place your right hand index finger above the harmonic octave and pick the string with the right thumb. 


You don't need to use a/b channels , you can do it in alt tuning on the VG 99
12 string alt tuning +7 and the pedal bend -2 FI

On fretless you can pick a harmonic on FI 5th "fret" then pressing down and slide.
The harmonic will be heard , not the pressed down note
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

#162
Thanks, i'll give it a try. Fretless is cool. I've thought about buying one and putting inlays that show where the frets would be. I would need that crutch for awhile.

I've also thought buying a harp guitar,but settled on an 8 string. It's still taking alot of time to get used to it. I've thought that having the 2 extra bass strings in an anodized color would help to be able to see the other 6 string scale patterns and chords.

A local luther once offered to make me a non-electric copy of metheny's picaso guitar for 10 grand, but that's still alot of money and then i'd have to learn how to tune and play it.

jdkvg88

Hello,
I just got the gp and love it except for the alt tuning. But the solution for me is to raise the patch volume to max along with the GK vol and the output vol of the gp. All volumes to max and then adjust the guitar amp etc to desired level. Set for Acoustic martin modeling with alt tuning of;D G C G C D. Playing a Grosh strat Gk 3.

I did this based on Elantric's suggestion of testing with patch 31. With patch level at 100 single notes sounded fine but lowering to 80 i started hearing the dissonance. So thank you!

vtgearhead

I can understand why GK pickup sensitivity would affect alt tuning quality, but why would patch volume have any impact?

jdkvg88

Pickup sens didn't seem to have any effect. I do have all strings set at 46 also in the modeling section i have the string levels all the way up to 100. It seems the original string note is being output with no way to just turn it off. Not sure if it's ok or hard on the gp to run everything at full throttle.

Elantric

#166
Quote from: jdkvg88 on May 04, 2017, 08:26:21 AMIt seems the original string note is being output with no way to just turn it off. Not sure if it's ok or hard on the gp to run everything at full throttle.

Use headphones or turn up the volume on your amplification system

You are hearing the vibration frequency of the unampified strings

jdkvg88

Ok i was able to turn up the amp and turn down the gp and keep the dissonance down but the vol is pretty loud. The way i did it allowed me start with the amp volume at almost it's lowest setting.
Thanks for the explanation on how that dissonance happens as it sure sounded like it was coming from the guitar amp.

alexmcginness

From my experience with the alt tuning thing its guitar related. I have 5 guitars with GK-3's on them and only one gives me alt tune niggles with the GP-10. The other 4 have no issues at all. The one guitar with the niggles only exhibits the anomalies on the A string open 1st second and third fret. The really frustrating thing is that the one guitar with the issues is the one I use for live work as its a travel sized guitar. Ive isolated the pickup from the body as best I can by routing out a trough under it and put foam spacers in there but same issue.
   I understand the frustration this kind of thing causes. Years ago I had niggles with the VG-99 and the nylon guitar. Some experienced the same thing and others not. One of the guys that didnt experience this was Bill Ruppert and he even posted a great audio demo to show that the hysteresis did not exist, yet I had no problem getting it to happen. Eventually a solution was found to eliminate it and I hope that someone will have an epiphany and solve the alt tune niggles with the GP-10. Untill then.... the struggle continues. :-(
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Brak(E)man

An update
It's a little early yet to be 100 % certain BUT
the GP that I got today seems to be working even with the
sustainer, chords and tuned in fifths and octaves , reverse Nashville 12 string etc
Managed to get the jiggles only with one specific chord one specific tuning.And only slight.
It looks like it might be unit related.
Same sounds , system settings and same guitar.
Too be continued...........
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

Quote from: Brak(E)man on January 04, 2018, 10:16:36 AM
An update
It's a little early yet to be 100 % certain BUT
the GP that I got today seems to be working even with the
sustainer, chords and tuned in fifths and octaves , reverse Nashville 12 string etc
Managed to get the jiggles only with one specific chord one specific tuning.And only slight.
It looks like it might be unit related.
Same sounds , system settings and same guitar.
Too be continued...........

Post the GP-10 serial number of the "working" GP-10 if possible
( they may have updated the hardware slightly to improve the DSP alt tunings on latest GP-10 units

Brak(E)man

#171
Z2E1016 " working " ( hopefully )
Z2E1017 NOT working
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#172
Quote from: Brak(E)man on January 04, 2018, 10:48:09 AM
Z2E1016 " working " ( hopefully )
Z2E1017 NOT working

How did you get two GP-10's with consecutive serial numbers?
HMM - that would indicate the older unit ( with lower serial number) tracks best?

I'll compare with my GP-10 serial numbers  - I have two  (purchased new summer 2014 )

I recall mine are in the range of Z2E05xx

Brak(E)man

#173
I don't know , I'm guessing the last bought one has been sitting, it's new but I got it at half price.



swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

alexmcginness

Ill try that later as I also have 2 GP 10s.

Z4E1703
Z2E0852
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.