Age discrimination for baby boomers

Started by amplayer, March 21, 2014, 09:08:18 AM

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amplayer

Elantric,
You know, if Roland hired someone like you in tech support, they'd easily satisfy their customer base.
My guess, is that they hire people in tech support that make way less than they'd have to pay someone like you.
Then again, maybe they are perfectly willing to hire (and pay) someone like you but can't because people like you simply are not available.
I doubt it though.  Most companies are simply not willing to pay support people the wage that would be needed to get stellar people.

My other idea is that why wouldn't Roland just hire you into their R&D department?  Although the business case for a better US-20 doesn't exist for you, it might exist for Roland.  Maybe 1000 people would buy a better US-20 if it were a Roland product.  It wouldn't cost them nearly as much to manufacture it as it would for an individual starting from scratch.

Elantric

#1
QuoteYou know, if Roland hired someone like you in tech support, they'd easily satisfy their customer base.

Actually I applied for jobs at the following companies in the past 10 years with the  following results :

Roland, (too old, no thanks)

Line6, (too old,

Fender ( never heard back)

Gibson ( almost became Director of Engineering at the Nashville Plant, but upon further review I said no thanks

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gibson-Guitar-Reviews-E6869.htm 

Im 59

amplayer

#2
Quote from:  Elantric on March 21, 2014, 09:16:42 AM
Actually I applied for jobs at the following companies in the past 10 years with the  following results :

Roland, (too old, no thanks)

Line6, (too old,

Fender ( never heard back)

Gibson ( almost became Director of Engineering, but upon further review I said no thanks

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gibson-Guitar-Reviews-E6869.htm 

Im 59

Eegads!

When I tell people about age discrimination in the technology industry, most don't believe me.
Age discrimination exists in all industries, but I think it's especially bad in technology and arts.

Part of the reason for the age discrimination is real, and I even understand it.  When a company thinks about hiring a middle aged person (like me), they know I'm unlikely to pack in the overtime hours for little reward.
OTOH, the fact that companies don't understand the value of potential people just because they aren't willing to pack in the hours is just plain stupid.
If somebody at Roland were to read your response to my US-20 question,
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3494.0

they'd be idiotic not to offer you a job right on the spot.  Where else would they find somebody with that amount of knowledge and innovation?

Also, I've been really pining for one of the new Gibson SG guitars with Min-ETune.  After looking through people's responses about working there (from your link), I'm not so interested anymore.

Elantric

#3
QuoteAge discrimination exists in all industries, but I think it's especially bad in technology and arts.

Indeed - particularly with new oBamaCare, Im in perfect health, yet most small Engineering companies can not afford the current 2014 Health Insurance for someone my age, I already pay a $600/ mo deductable, and this is with my company paying another $700/mo for an Employee Health insurance plan.

If I became an "independent consultant, I would be paying double that per month all by myself under current laws in US.

Many tech companies I know have a new policy to "get rid of everyone older than age 50" -the joke about "find a 13 year old to fix the computer" remains the motus operandi for most Human Resources hiring decisions.
   
Quote
Also, I've been really pining for one of the new Gibson SG guitars with Min-ETune.  After looking through people's responses about working there (from your link), I'm not so interested anymore.

Ive been playing Gibsons since 1966, the best ones were built before that date.

I shouldnt complain - Things are tough all over   

Re Gibson - get some popcorn and read these

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=69


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=23


Quotethey know I'm unlikely to pack in the overtime hours for little reward.


I typically work 55hrs per week - many times I'm working past midnight.

I post here as my current PCB I'm designing is in the middle of a board save or Design Rule Check, (takes 2-3 minutes with nothing else to do.)

Story of VGuitarforums
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.0

You can teach someone electronics, and how to play guitar - but you cant teach Passion.
and

One man's insignificant useless trivia is another mans keys to the castle. I figured I might as well document/share my guitar knowledge somewhere before I die- why not here?

Like many here -  I'm passionate about hi tech guitar. I figure if folks passionate about Ford Mustang can have a forum
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/

High Tech 13 pin Guitarists should have one too.
https://www.vguitarforums.com


whippinpost91850

#4
Quote from:  Elantric on March 21, 2014, 09:16:42 AM
Actually I applied for jobs at the following companies in the past 10 years with the  following results :

Roland, (too old, no thanks)

Line6, (too old,

Fender ( never heard back)

Gibson ( almost became Director of Engineering, but upon further review I said no thanks

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gibson-Guitar-Reviews-E6869.htm 

Im 59
Sucks to be TOO OLD don't it. For the first time in my life recently I've had bands tell me i'm too old, even though I can still out rock a lot of the players(bands) I'm  meeting

whippinpost91850

#5
QuoteLike many here -  I'm passionate about hi tech guitar. I figure if folks passionate about Ford Mustang can have a forum
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/

High Tech 13 pin Guitarists should have one too.
https://www.vguitarforums.com
BRAVO!!!!!!!

aliensporebomb

I also have seen ageism in the tech industry (maybe we should have a separate topic for this?)

Even though there are laws out there so they're not supposed to be able to do it I have seen it.  On more than a few occasions and more than a few employers.
Honestly, many people my age aren't really very techy at all and don't have the interest or have families that divide their attention.

I hit 50 last summer and few people my age are mega into technology.

I can easily understand how employers would feel someone my age would be a liability and most people my age have a wife and kids so they can't work the long hours the tech industry often demands.  Heck, I watched a guy I used to work with fall asleep on the job and he was just a little older than I am. 

I try to watch my weight and don't really look my age.  But word leaked out at the job around that time so I owned up to my real age.  I wonder if that made me a target? Probably.  I try to make sure I'm at least as productive if not moreso than my younger co-workers (I watch stats like a hawk).

Back to the GP-10 - Alex Hutchings demo showed that the GP-10 had some cool features but I still maintain the VG-99 can do all the sounds you hear there.  That thing is much less expensive though so it might be a good entry level way to get 13-pin functionality for some people.  The other thought is that if I was able to translate some of my best VG-99 patches to the GP-10 I could leave my VG-99 at home where it's safe from the ravages of public exposure whereas the GP-10 is inexpensive enough that if it
got damaged or stolen it wouldn't be like trying to track down a pristine 99 somewhere.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Kevin M

Quote from:  aliensporebomb on March 22, 2014, 09:28:34 AM


I try to watch my weight and don't really look my age.  But word leaked out at the job around that time so I owned up to my real age.  I wonder if that made me a target? Probably.  I try to make sure I'm at least as productive if not moreso than my younger co-workers (I watch stats like a hawk).



One should not have to prove themselves because of their age.  If intelligence, ability to adapt to change, etc. are equal, I'd prefer the experience over youth.


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Rhcole

I'm the same age as Elantric. Age discrimination is everywhere and ridiculously easy to disguise by companies hiring people.
My solution is to work for myself or team up with old guys.

We're getting off-topic, but it's a subject of some passion for me.

Elantric

i was at a Jam session yesterday with old band mates and we are age 67-55 average. The dominant fact shared in discussion over a beer  is how "invisible" we are to current marketing efforts and how "invisible"  most of us feel in public, as we encounter those who are still under age 45  - there is an active agenda by youth to completely dismiss our generations abilities and accomplishments (often with intent) - deeming us as "irrelevant old farts - with nothing more to contribute to current society". Its indeed a visible barrier (no glass ceiling here!)


Kevin M

Quote from:  Elantric on March 24, 2014, 01:12:32 PM
i was at a Jam session yesterday with old band mates and we are age 67-55 average. The dominant fact shared in discussion over a beer  is how "invisible" we are to current marketing efforts and how "invisible"  most of us feel in public, as we encounter those who are still under age 45  - there is an active agenda by youth to completely dismiss our generations abilities and accomplishments (often with intent) - deeming us as "irrelevant old farts - with nothing more to contribute to current society". Its indeed a visible barrier (no glass ceiling here!)

I'm younger than you guys, but eventually will be there!  I think at some point you have to say 'enough already'.  Refuse to buy, or be part of those things that don't recognize your demographics, and use social media to influence change where possible.  The U.S. is almost disgusting in its promotion of youth over experience; this needs to change.


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Elantric

#11
Although I understand  its a known fact that  most significant technological "breakthroughs" only occur when the old generation of gurus died off, allowing new mindsets and new agendas to finally take hold.

Just need to try to hold off and delay that nagging feeling that I'm feeling like its 1915 and I'm the the best horse shoeing blacksmith in a town full of gas stations and  automobiles  ;)


supernicd

I would not lament not falling off of the marketing machine's radar.  I think it basically comes down to that as a person ages (and becomes wiser), it is less and less easy to get their money.

They are less likely to whip out a credit card for an impulse purchase they don't need (and/or can't afford)
They are more likely to see through marketing hype and through to the actual value proposition
They are less likely to buy something just to impress their friends.

Every online purchase you make today gives you a handy button after your purchase to tweet to your friends and post to your Facebook page about your new purchase.  My friends (in the 40-50 bracket) are too old to care what I'm buying and would wonder why I felt the need to be such a show off.  :)

Targeting to remove the most experienced workers from a company is just foolish, and probably explains why so much of what I buy is lacking in quality these days.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Rhcole

OK,

I'm gonna' roll with this shift in topic a bit further. Elantric, I had this exact conversation with a guy over the weekend who got thrown out of a company when he turned 56.
You go with what you do better than people who are young. They will work harder and longer than us and take more BS for less compensation.
We know when something is done right and is exquisite. There is value in that, and there are plenty of people who will pay for that.

I conducted a webinar a few weeks ago as host with brilliant young geniuses who understand social marketing way beyond my comprehension. Terrifying.
But I can identify answers to questions that they won't know to ask for 15 years.

You go with what you got.


Kevin M

I think that for particular industries adaptability and keeping abreast of the trends are key to staying relevant.  I'm a software developer and understood this going in. Just because you are older doesn't mean you have to become irrelevant.


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FreeTime

I was passed over for a fairly decent job to someone 30 years my junior that was eating chicken wings, stopped chewing for a moment and asked " Are these made with pork ? ". If my industry required brawn over brain I'd understand, but its the opposite. I'm friends with some of the brass, and they did say "Its off the record because we can't say that, but its your age."

It seems the music industry is the same, all about image. The difference is 20-30 years ago it was ok to look unusual so long as you had great hair (That was Styx's prerequisite when they inducted Tommy Shaw), nowadays you better look like a stripper. A young Stripper.


carsonics

But on a positive note about being an older musician, the market is much better now for older musicians since a lot of baby boomer musicians and acts are still working, playing, do the nostalgia circuit - so it's ok to be an older "rocker" now in a way that wasn't acceptable in the earlier periods of pop music.  A lot of pro players I see working are older players and just in the last month or so I've seen tons of baby boomer acts doing the casino circuits or television: Pat Benatar, Joan Jett, Tom petty, The Stones, Led Zepplin, on and on - at least it's normal now and acceptable to be an older (rock) musician.  Doesn't matter as much if you're a jazz or classical player.  Nobody likes growing older, but that's life.  Keep playing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lespauled

I'm a victim of age discrimination.  21 yr old girls don't look at me any more.  ;D :'( :'( ;D

aliensporebomb

#18
Sigh.  They didn't look at me when I was 21.  Ouch. 

Anyway, no matter.  All I gotta do is make a video go viral or something.  Don't need a young stripper for that but it might help.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

carsonics

There's always the PBS circuit or you can play old standards at nursing homes with your GR-55!

Mrchevy

Quote from: FreeTime on March 24, 2014, 11:19:21 PM

It seems the music industry is the same, all about image. The difference is 20-30 years ago it was ok to look unusual so long as you had great hair (That was Styx's prerequisite when they inducted Tommy Shaw), nowadays you better look like a stripper. A young Stripper.



I think it would be fun to enter a big "Battle of the bands" competition ( incognito ), and put a spanking on some young whippersnappers. Might have to go this route.....
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#21
I was recently sent an email asking if i wanted to participate in a 10 minute product survey for new gear,  I clicked Yes

First Survey question:

Quote"Were you born before 1976? "

I entered "Yes"

and then discovered there would be no further questions   - they did not want my opinion and the  survey ended with

Quote"Thank you for taking our survey"

I suppose I must just get acclimated to being cast aside by product marketing managers as a discarded irrelevant member of society

"same as it ever was, same as it ever was, "


mbenigni

Quote from: Elantric on September 02, 2015, 02:33:02 PM
First Survey question:

I entered "Yes"

and then discovered there would be no further questions   - they did not want my opinion and the  survey ended with

Absolutely hysterical.  :D

mapperboy

Hey, I though we chicka-chicka boomers had all the money!!! 
(except of course for the recent crop of internet IPO billionaires who avg around 18-25 yrs)
I guess we're not 'Trending' anymore. ;)
"No such thing as spare time.
No such thing as free time.
No such thing as down time.
All you got is life time. Go!"
- Henry Rollins

Kevin M

There are way too many industries that overtly engage in unethical age discrimination. It's too bad those of us older than 35 or 40 can't use our combined socioeconomic power to our advantage somehow.